2012 Bathurst 12 Hour - 24-26 February

[davelise]

Shane,

There is no way you can run the 12hr for $10k. Do a realistic budget, including rebuilding the car after the event, and see where you end up.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by davelise

Shane,

There is no way you can run the 12hr for $10k. Do a realistic budget, including rebuilding the car after the event, and see where you end up.

Is the Yaris still eligible?

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by Shane001

When was the last time you were at a prod sports event?

The front running cars include Iain Pretty's GT40 replica, a couple of very fast Elise's, a handful of GT3 Porsche's, a sprinkling of ex GT cars, oh and Ted's Lamborghini last year. All very expensive cars to build, maintain and run.

I'd say at least a quarter of our field are $100K + cars. With a couple in the multiple hundred thousands!

Last November, PI for Island Magic... (co-drove one of the "very fast Elise's" as you put it, cam over the line in 5th, [4th after others penalties]).

Now, that car did not cost $100K to build (in 2009).

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Is the Yaris still eligible?

Kind of missing the point...

if you ignore the car for a minute, just add up:

The entry fee's ~$11,000
Tyre Bill ~$20,000
Fuel Bill ~$4,000
Accommodation+food etc. ~$3,000

So, your at some ~$38,000 before you have though about the car

then, after 12 hours, the car will require a complete re-build/overhaul too.

your dreaming if you think you can run the 12 hour on the cheap

[D.R.T.]

How many tyres would a Yaris go through for 12 hours?

[Driver TBA]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

How many tyres would a Yaris go through for 12 hours?

$20,000 worth by the looks of it...


or 164 Bob Jane All Rounders

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by Driver TBA

$20,000 worth by the looks of it...


or 164 Bob Jane All Rounders

that figure was based on 7.5 sets of Michelin's (the mandated tyre)

[Driver TBA]

Originally Posted by Simon S

that figure was based on 7.5 sets of Michelin's (the mandated tyre)

Wasn't it open tyre regs this year

[Shane001]

Originally Posted by Simon S

one of the "very fast Elise's" ...
Now, that car did not cost $100K to build (in 2009).

Wow I'm impressed, I honestly would have expected the two blue elises to be around 100K easy, I'm talking original purchase, development (including all those little mistakes and changes along the way) and the final build costs.

Still it would have to be up there surely?

Elise's aside, I think my comment 'I'd say at least a quarter of our field are $100K + cars. With a couple in the multiple hundred thousands!' would still be pretty accurate, based on 2011 Enduro fields at least.

Originally Posted by davelise

There is no way you can run the 12hr for $10k. Do a realistic budget, including rebuilding the car after the event, and see where you end up.

Yeah, my bad, should have been $20-30K including entry, not including the cost of the car or post event rebuilding. Sure it's not going to be a front running car, but if you choose a reliable car, driven with a view to finish (and assuming nothing major goes wrong) it could be in for a class podium.

Entry: $11K
Tyres: $3-4K (one new set and a few used sets - admittedly I haven't looked at the 'tyre contract' though?)
Fuel: $1.5-2K
Food & Accomodation: $1-2K (how much was camping this year?)
Oil, filters, belts, freshen up etc pre event: $1K
Brakes rotors and pads: $1K

Post event freshen up = another 100,00Km engine from an importer - $1000

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by Shane001

Wow I'm impressed, I honestly would have expected the two blue elises to be around 100K easy, I'm talking original purchase, development (including all those little mistakes and changes along the way) and the final build costs.

Still it would have to be up there surely?

Elise's aside, I think my comment 'I'd say at least a quarter of our field are $100K + cars. With a couple in the multiple hundred thousands!' would still be pretty accurate, based on 2011 Enduro fields at least.




Yeah, my bad, should have been $20-30K including entry, not including the cost of the car or post event rebuilding. Sure it's not going to be a front running car, but if you choose a reliable car, driven with a view to finish (and assuming nothing major goes wrong) it could be in for a class podium.

Entry: $11K
Tyres: $3-4K (one new set and a few used sets - admittedly I haven't looked at the 'tyre contract' though?)
Fuel: $1.5-2K
Food & Accomodation: $1-2K (how much was camping this year?)
Oil, filters, belts, freshen up etc pre event: $1K
Brakes rotors and pads: $1K

Post event freshen up = another 100,00Km engine from an importer - $1000

that's all well and good if you just want to run round at the back (and remember you still have to make the 130%)

Not sure your one set of tyres (and a few old ones) would go in the conditions this year either?

asides all that, you would be happy to pay $20-30K to be last (with a serious possibility of not even starting)

(in all this I have also ignored the cost of fitting out your car with dry-break fuel fittings and buying/renting fuel towers, this alone is not trivial)

[Oldtony]

Can I remind people of the 130% rule.
Before spending a dollar you would want to be pretty confident the car and all it's drivers were all capable of at least a 2:43 or you could finish up with a very expensive wasted trip to Bathurst.
That cuts out a whole heap of low cost entries as that is a pretty reasonable time around the Mountain.
Of course you could run a diesel to cut the fuel costs
We did a paper excercise on running an Audi A4 Quattro Tdi about 5 years ago under the production regulations and finished up with an expenditure estimate of $180k to buy prepare and run, with hopefully recovering a very tired car as reward for our work.
Saved our money, potential sponsor went bust

Sorry Simon missed you ref to 130%

[Shane001]

Originally Posted by Simon S

(in all this I have also ignored the cost of fitting out your car with dry-break fuel fittings and buying/renting fuel towers, this alone is not trivial)

Yeah I hadn't factored that bit in lol! Was waiting for someone to point that out... Obviously this is running a car that already has dry fuel break.

Re running at the back, not everyone enters a race like Bathurst 12hr to run 1st, for some it's just about racing 12 hours at one of the best race tracks in the world. If all you guys are interested in is those running at the front lets just run a 5 to 10 car field...

Point is it could be done on a relatively small budget, and a finish at a race like this would be a win for a small team like this.

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by Shane001

Yeah I hadn't factored that bit in lol! Was waiting for someone to point that out... Obviously this is running a car that already has dry fuel break.

Re running at the back, not everyone enters a race like Bathurst 12hr to run 1st, for some it's just about racing 12 hours at one of the best race tracks in the world. If all you guys are interested in is those running at the front lets just run a 5 to 10 car field...

Point is it could be done on a relatively small budget, and a finish at a race like this would be a win for a small team like this.

whilst I understand your point, and no, we can't all win, the point of classes is to compete in your class, or does that not interest you either? (at which point, are you interested in racing or just doing a trackday?)

I still do not believe you can do it on a 'small' budget as you put it, unless you consider $40-50K small? (or loose the costs somewhere else).

[Shane001]

Originally Posted by Simon S

at which point, are you interested in racing or just doing a trackday

Personally I'm very interested in racing and winning, and have never been interested in nor have I done any sprints or regularity events. But the reality is not everyone has the budget to win outright or in class, and if you want to narrow your view of what constitutes a motorsport competitor on that basis then you're going to end up with pretty small grids.

That said I'm confident my humble FTO is capable of a class win, but unfortunately I don't have the budget for new tyres or some of the go fast bits that would make achieving that reality easy. So I do what I can with what I have and do the best I can and still I compete because I love racing. To be quite honest in my very limited motorsport 'career' I've had some pretty awesome racing down towards the rear of the grid. Some times I look at some of the front running cars that run away from the field in some categories and think to myself that must be like doing track days! It's very rare that I don't have someone to race with, door to door, bumper to bumper, and looking out for you lot coming through when I'm not keeps me busy

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by Shane001

Personally I'm very interested in racing and winning, and have never been interested in nor have I done any sprints or regularity events. But the reality is not everyone has the budget to win outright or in class, and if you want to narrow your view of what constitutes a motorsport competitor on that basis then you're going to end up with pretty small grids.

That said I'm confident my humble FTO is capable of a class win, but unfortunately I don't have the budget for new tyres or some of the go fast bits that would make achieving that reality easy. So I do what I can with what I have and do the best I can and still I compete because I love racing. To be quite honest in my very limited motorsport 'career' I've had some pretty awesome racing down towards the rear of the grid. Some times I look at some of the front running cars that run away from the field in some categories and think to myself that must be like doing track days! It's very rare that I don't have someone to race with, door to door, bumper to bumper, and looking out for you lot coming through when I'm not keeps me busy

so what do you run it in now? (as in what class?)

[Shane001]

Originally Posted by Simon S

so what do you run it in now? (as in what class?)

Prod Sports 2B Class C

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by Shane001

Prod Sports 2B Class C

ah, OK, this is you then?

Domatech Pty Ltd - Shane Domaschenz (NSW) - Mitsubishi FTO - 2000 - C - 2:58.2701

(interestingly, the 'cut' for the 12 hour was 2:46.6917)

[Shane001]

Originally Posted by Simon S

ah, OK, this is you then?

Domatech Pty Ltd - Shane Domaschenz (NSW) - Mitsubishi FTO - 2000 - C - 2:58.2701

(interestingly, the 'cut' for the 12 hour was 2:46.6917)

This is me from last year with only 4 of 5 gears;
26 79 Domatech Pty Ltd Shane Domaschenz (NSW) Mitsubishi FTO 2000 C 20 01:00:47.3991 20 2:45.3702

http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/re.../2011.MOUN.R21

So would easily make the 2:46 cut. Didn't say I'm considering entering the FTO though.

[B24]

Shane: Why not try your luck in the Wakefield 300 and Winton 300. Very good practice for a run at the 12hr. Close competition, fast cars to watch out for, usually rains and its affordable to enter. You will also get a realistic picture of costing for enduro events (Money,time and energy). If the 12hr was 20k, Im sure a few of the teams in the Wakefield and Winton enduro's would enter.
I do hope the 12hr promoters improve the eligibility list for the race. It is great but it would be nice to see a few of retired GT and current Prod cars out there racing in the 12hr.

[Oldtony]

Can I make the point that next years pole could be in the region of a 2:06.
130% of that is 2:43.8.
That is getting down to a time that is pretty hard for all 3 drivers to match in anything but a pretty quick car.
Even 130% of 2:08 is 2:46.4 which excluded 1 entry this year.
It means that the organisers are going to have to encourage more GTs, some pretty quick invitation cars or the very best of the Production cars.
Interesting to see their strategy. I hope they announce it in plenty of time for potential entrants to plan and prepare.

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Can I make the point that next years pole could be in the region of a 2:06.
130% of that is 2:43.8.
That is getting down to a time that is pretty hard for all 3 drivers to match in anything but a pretty quick car.
Even 130% of 2:08 is 2:46.4 which excluded 1 entry this year.
It means that the organisers are going to have to encourage more GTs, some pretty quick invitation cars or the very best of the Production cars.
Interesting to see their strategy. I hope they announce it in plenty of time for potential entrants to plan and prepare.

it get's worse than that, without the cap that was imposed, I am sure it would be down to a 2:04 or less (Simonsen has already done a 2:04 round there).

Last years prosports had issues with this too, cause a lot of arguments when an imposed lap time cap was proposed (so that the 130% time did not potentially cut the slower of the 2F cars).

[Shane001]

TBH I think the 12 hour is well outside the realm of someone like me now, back when I bought the FTO a few years ago I actually bought it from one of the proddy 12hr guys and we discussed wether it would be eligible for the 12 hour, and at the time this was a possibility, but I don't think realistically it is anymore. I expect to do low 2:40 laptimes this year but still you need all three/four drivers to be inside the 130%, and the costs are just getting too high, especially when you have to buy both fuel and tyres through the event supply contracts.

Maybe I'll impress someone through prod sports and get offered a drive one year

B24, I'm pretty happy running with Prod Sports in their 1 hour races, my goal is to get in a full season, all 4 rounds, not just the NSW rounds, just a matter of finding the time. And I prefer the longer racetracks. U don't get up enough speed at WP

[B24]

If the production cars could run slicks it could make it easier to make the 130%. Having these cars run semi's and expect to land a 130% time is a bit rich. Another point would be letting the proddies have free range on slicks to stimulate some more competition with tyre manufactors. They may even gain some sponsorship. The rule should be 135% to be fair, as the GT3 cars are in another world(love that world though..). If not, you will eliminate the minno teams which goes against the grain of the event.
Also hope to see more GT4 cars next year. I was hoping for a bigger field but seems like it will have to wait for 2013.

Shane: I know both Wakefield and Winton are not the quickest tracks but the point was more about gaining experience as a team and costings in the longest enduro available to club racers on the east coast (W.A. also has a 300 which has very strong fields). You have to pit for fuel, not rules. It does make a difference.

Best of luck with the 1hr events. Will say hello next time I see the FTO.

Cheers

[Shane001]

Originally Posted by B24

If the production cars could run slicks it could make it easier to make the 130%.

That's actually a good point. I hadn't read the regs but had assumed the proddies would have been running slicks as well in the new 'GT 12hr era'.

Were the proddies required to go with the event supplier tyres? I know several of the proddies back before the move to GT's had tyre sponsors etc so this would also cause a big increase in costs.

Re WP/Winton enduros, something to consider, I'm happy with the prod sports 1hrs though, I have a pretty limited budget atm and not a lot of time and I get my Bathurst fix at Easter

TBH this all got a bit off track and all about me entering the B12HR, which was not really what I was suggesting in my replies to Simon, my replies were more just in general.

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by Shane001

TBH I think the 12 hour is well outside the realm of someone like me now, back when I bought the FTO a few years ago I actually bought it from one of the proddy 12hr guys and we discussed wether it would be eligible for the 12 hour, and at the time this was a possibility, but I don't think realistically it is anymore. I expect to do low 2:40 laptimes this year but still you need all three/four drivers to be inside the 130%, and the costs are just getting too high, especially when you have to buy both fuel and tyres through the event supply contracts.

Could not agree more, I think if the 12H is to survive and flourish, it needs to address these issues.

to be blunt, they need to get more 'local' entries and make more of them as opposed to going on and on about odd million $ cars that might enter.

the event needs 50+ grids, and the way to achieve this would be to make it attractive to the front half of prodsports as well as GT's.

the Prodsports enduro's are proving very well subscribed, the B12 hour organisers would do well to look at why, it's not rocket science...