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Old 18 Sep 2020, 10:46 (Ref:4003470)   #1626
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Originally Posted by rustyfan View Post
Not sure if it's been mentioned before, but just to chip in with some numbers from NASCAR it's not uncommon to see temps upwards 130-140° F/50-60° C inside the cars during hot days.

In some more extreme cases they've even seen temps around 160° F/71° C, which is effin' crazy.
Nascar does however have all the hot bits on the front of the car and the spends the time running into and above some very hot air. The F1 dynamic is considerably more friendly from a heat point of view.
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Old 18 Sep 2020, 11:20 (Ref:4003484)   #1627
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Nascar does however have all the hot bits on the front of the car and the spends the time running into and above some very hot air. The F1 dynamic is considerably more friendly from a heat point of view.
Yep, definitely. I was more thinking from a driver point of view and the temps they sometimes need to endure
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Old 23 Sep 2020, 01:20 (Ref:4005726)   #1628
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Originally Posted by rustyfan View Post
Yep, definitely. I was more thinking from a driver point of view and the temps they sometimes need to endure
The Nascar driver is sitting directly in the blow torch flame though, and the F1 driver has that all exiting behind him, so the heating effect is much less in a rear engine car.
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Old 23 Sep 2020, 08:27 (Ref:4005760)   #1629
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I've had the privilege to stick my head into a few modern touring cars in the last few years just after they have been out doing a race and the heat inside the car just blew me away.
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Old 23 Sep 2020, 15:04 (Ref:4005859)   #1630
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I bet they would be pretty hot after the race, especially with all the electric technology they have these days, although there is some cooling to the drivers
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Old 1 Dec 2020, 10:04 (Ref:4019856)   #1631
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The Grosjean accident at Sakhir certainly seems to have provided proof of concept for the Halo.

Amazing how many of those who criticized its introduction are now singing its praised, well better late than never.
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Old 1 Dec 2020, 14:05 (Ref:4019917)   #1632
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Amazing how many of those who criticized its introduction are now singing its praised, well better late than never.

Do you mean these people changed their opinion based on new evidence?


I'm shocked!
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Old 1 Dec 2020, 18:43 (Ref:4019975)   #1633
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To be fair a lot of people didn’t expect the halo to be used in that way. Been ages since we’ve seen a car go through a barrier
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Old 1 Dec 2020, 19:09 (Ref:4019986)   #1634
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To be fair a lot of people didn’t expect the halo to be used in that way. Been ages since we’ve seen a car go through a barrier
That's precisely what Halo was designed to do. Remember Bianchi's fatal accident? If the Halo had been used then, he wouldn't have sustained the head injury when his car crashed into that recovery vehicle.
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Old 1 Dec 2020, 19:44 (Ref:4019992)   #1635
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Do you mean these people changed their opinion based on new evidence?
I just went through my posts in this thread. I changed my mind and I'm not too proud to detail how:
  • I started convinced a canopy was the only real solution.
  • I thought the halo concept looked stupid.
  • I thought it was the right answer to the wrong question, or the wrong answer to the right question, without really understanding what the question was.
  • I was concerned about it not preventing small object incursions (springs etc), but soon realised that it wasn't aiming to be a 100% answer to every question.
  • I was concerned about blind spots and visibility.

and then
  • I was impressed by cars bouncing over it.
  • I am convinced we've just seen a life saved by it.

So yeah, it is possible, with evidence, to change one's opinion. I know I have.
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Old 1 Dec 2020, 19:49 (Ref:4019996)   #1636
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Old 1 Dec 2020, 20:33 (Ref:4020007)   #1637
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Originally Posted by Greem View Post
I just went through my posts in this thread. I changed my mind and I'm not too proud to detail how:
  • I started convinced a canopy was the only real solution.
  • I thought the halo concept looked stupid.
  • I thought it was the right answer to the wrong question, or the wrong answer to the right question, without really understanding what the question was.
  • I was concerned about it not preventing small object incursions (springs etc), but soon realised that it wasn't aiming to be a 100% answer to every question.
  • I was concerned about blind spots and visibility.

and then
  • I was impressed by cars bouncing over it.
  • I am convinced we've just seen a life saved by it.

So yeah, it is possible, with evidence, to change one's opinion. I know I have.
To my mind - the effects of the halo have shown why you shouldn't solve the last problem in isolation.

During the 'surge' in clamor for a canopy or similar to be introduced, many cited Massa's incident as the reason. The adoption of the halo, along with the ballistic tests that helmets are subjected to, look to be the best compromise at the moment between preventing injury from external objects, shielding the driver and post-incident extraction.

With that in mind, I feel the FIA have got it absolutely right.
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Old 1 Dec 2020, 21:52 (Ref:4020024)   #1638
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That's precisely what Halo was designed to do. Remember Bianchi's fatal accident? If the Halo had been used then, he wouldn't have sustained the head injury when his car crashed into that recovery vehicle.

I don’t think so. Remember he went in backwards and with quite some force. I’m not sure even the halo would have saved him
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Old 1 Dec 2020, 22:03 (Ref:4020029)   #1639
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I don’t think so. Remember he went in backwards and with quite some force. I’m not sure even the halo would have saved him
He didn't go in backwards. Watch the footage for yourself, as I'm not going to post a link as it doesn't make for good general viewing. It was this accident that primarily lead to the development of the Halo.
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Old 1 Dec 2020, 22:19 (Ref:4020038)   #1640
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Oh really? So explain how the rear of his car was sheared off, yet the front was pretty much intact
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Old 1 Dec 2020, 22:24 (Ref:4020040)   #1641
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Oh really? So explain how the rear of his car was sheared off, yet the front was pretty much intact
Bianchi's car had the top knocked off.

Learn to quit while you're not massively in the hole. This bit of discussion isn't about this weekend.
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Old 1 Dec 2020, 22:27 (Ref:4020044)   #1642
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Yeah ok, my original point about was that those who were against the halo originally never expected to see a crash like Grosjean had in this day and age and therefore nobody expected it to be used that way. The halo has been more for protection against debris and other cars.
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Old 1 Dec 2020, 22:30 (Ref:4020045)   #1643
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Oh really? So explain how the rear of his car was sheared off, yet the front was pretty much intact
The nose and cockpit of the car went under the recovery vehicle, partially lifting it of the ground and as the car continued the roll bar and airbox were sheared off.
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Old 1 Dec 2020, 22:54 (Ref:4020053)   #1644
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Yeah ok, my original point about was that those who were against the halo originally never expected to see a crash like Grosjean had in this day and age and therefore nobody expected it to be used that way. The halo has been more for protection against debris and other cars.
If you want protection against debris, like in Massa's accident, then the Aeroscreen used by IndyCar would be better.
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Old 2 Dec 2020, 00:04 (Ref:4020060)   #1645
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The FIA did test the halo (and other devices) with a wheel though. But anyway moving on
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Old 2 Dec 2020, 00:45 (Ref:4020065)   #1646
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So yeah, it is possible, with evidence, to change one's opinion. I know I have.
I'm with you. I was really quite conflicted about Halo to begin with, just felt like a step too far - how wrong I was. Happy to stand corrected on that original opinion, based on on the further evidence since then that has definitely changed my opinion.
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Old 2 Dec 2020, 03:00 (Ref:4020082)   #1647
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Originally Posted by Greem View Post
I just went through my posts in this thread. I changed my mind and I'm not too proud to detail how:
  • I started convinced a canopy was the only real solution.
  • I thought the halo concept looked stupid.
  • I thought it was the right answer to the wrong question, or the wrong answer to the right question, without really understanding what the question was.
  • I was concerned about it not preventing small object incursions (springs etc), but soon realised that it wasn't aiming to be a 100% answer to every question.
  • I was concerned about blind spots and visibility.

and then
  • I was impressed by cars bouncing over it.
  • I am convinced we've just seen a life saved by it.

So yeah, it is possible, with evidence, to change one's opinion. I know I have.


I found my first thoughts of it as well.... "What a load of ****ocks!" was my first post.
I too have changed my opinion. (some time ago)
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Old 2 Dec 2020, 15:17 (Ref:4020178)   #1648
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Just like after each crash, there should be a review of what worked, what didn't. The same should be true for everyone who holds an opinion on safety device development.

For me it's true to say that my preference was and still is a full canopy, but there is no denying the halo's role in Grosjean's survival of the accident.

What I am having thoughts about regarding a canopy, is whether the various escape system mentioned or proposed (I've suggested some in this thread myself) would have allowed Grosjean to escape as quickly as he did.
By the same token, I wonder whether if a canopy was in place as part of the safety cell, would have kept him in a safe cocoon from the fire, allowing it to be put out/brought under sufficient control to then escape.

I have no questions, and no answers, just airing my thoughts after several days of review and relief that Grosjean is alive and relatively unhurt.
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Old 2 Dec 2020, 21:51 (Ref:4020252)   #1649
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Just like after each crash, there should be a review of what worked, what didn't. The same should be true for everyone who holds an opinion on safety device development.

For me it's true to say that my preference was and still is a full canopy, but there is no denying the halo's role in Grosjean's survival of the accident.

What I am having thoughts about regarding a canopy, is whether the various escape system mentioned or proposed (I've suggested some in this thread myself) would have allowed Grosjean to escape as quickly as he did.
By the same token, I wonder whether if a canopy was in place as part of the safety cell, would have kept him in a safe cocoon from the fire, allowing it to be put out/brought under sufficient control to then escape.

I have no questions, and no answers, just airing my thoughts after several days of review and relief that Grosjean is alive and relatively unhurt.
Agree with all of this. The retrospective on the solutions after the event, that the the halo was a major factor in the positive outcome, my preference for a well implemented canopy (or at least screen) solution and that it's hard to say if a canopy/screen would have helped or hurt in this situation.

Richard
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Old 3 Dec 2020, 02:23 (Ref:4020277)   #1650
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Agree with all of this. The retrospective on the solutions after the event, that the the halo was a major factor in the positive outcome, my preference for a well implemented canopy (or at least screen) solution and that it's hard to say if a canopy/screen would have helped or hurt in this situation.

Richard
Agree with both of you here too, although I must admit that I find Indycar's version beyond ugly with few benefits.
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