Martini Trophy - WEC Revival

[andy97]

I see in today's Autosport that the Martini Trophy is to morph into the WEC Revival, allowing in not just the 2 Litre Group 6 and Sports 2000 cars, but also cars that raced in the WEC and similar type events, GTs and Touring Cars up to 1980.

I assume that means that the series will be open to Group 2, 4 and 5 cars then. I wonder what that means for the Martini type cars, ie will they turn up, and what else will come out to play hat isn't already catered for? Any ideas?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by andy97

I see in today's Autosport that the Martini Trophy is to morph into the WEC Revival, allowing in not just the 2 Litre Group 6 and Sports 2000 cars, but also cars that raced in the WEC and similar type events, GTs and Touring Cars up to 1980.

I assume that means that the series will be open to Group 2, 4 and 5 cars then. I wonder what that means for the Martini type cars, ie will they turn up, and what else will come out to play hat isn't already catered for? Any ideas?

Andy, I've posted the press release on calendar thread as it includes race dates. My gut feeling is that the series could be similar to CER that Peter Auto run in Europe, but will be interesting to see if that is the case.

I would have thought that Gp 6 Martini cars will still be at the front, as they are in CER. Not sure if all are configured for 60 minute races, however.

Look forward to learning more!

[andy97]

Arh, I have now seen your post Mike, and your post of the press release. I wouldn't have thought of looking there. I hope it's a success as it should give an opportunity to see iconic cars in the UK that are not normally seen here that often.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by andy97

Arh, I have now seen your post Mike, and your post of the press release. I wouldn't have thought of looking there. I hope it's a success as it should give an opportunity to see iconic cars in the UK that are not normally seen here that often.

As I'm in front of the right PC, here it is again


Wednesday 17th December 2014
Martini Trophy evolves into WEC Revival

The HSCC’s Martini Trophy with Supersports will undergo a major development for 2015 with the inclusion of a wider range of eligible cars and a new name of WEC Revival.

As well as the 2-litre sports-racing cars and Sports 2000 that have contested the series since its inception in 2011, the new initiative will open the hour-long races up to pre-1980 Sports Racing, GT and Touring Cars of a type that would have competed in the World Endurance Championship or other international competition in period.

The range of eligible cars is extensive and includes many models of Porsche including the Carrera RSR, 934, 935 and 936, the Ferrari 512, BMW M1, Alfa Romeo T33, BMW CSL and much more. The existing classes for pre ’72 and Pre’79 2-litre sports-racing cars and pre ’85 Sports 2000 will remain.

The new series is the result of a joint venture between the Historic Sports Car Club and Automobiles Historiques Ltd, the organisation run by Flavien and Vanessa Marçais. The race format will be a half-hour qualifying session followed by a 60-minute race, with mandatory pit stops and optional two drivers.

The calendar will focus on four high-profile events, taking in the Grand Prix circuits at Silverstone and Brands Hatch as well as races at Zandvoort and Dijon.

The WEC Revival calendar is:
May 16/17: Silverstone International Trophy
July 11/12: Brands Hatch Historic Super Prix
August 28-30: Zandvoort Historic Grand Prix
October 2-4: Dijon Motors Cup

"This builds on the success of the Martini Trophy with Supersports and is intended to bring out cars that have not previously had a high-profile UK-based series," said Grahame White, CEO of the HSCC. "We’re extending the scope of the Martini Trophy, while retaining what we have done so far."

Flavien Marçais said:
"The WEC Revival will return to the most evocative circuits,namely Silverstone, Brands Hatch, Zandvoort and Dijon, at prime historic events, offering the perfect combination of historical context and modern facilities. Between the current Martini Trophy 2-litre sports-cars, and the additional GT, Touring and 3-litre sports-cars lined up, the series looks very promising."

For more information, contact the HSCC on 01327 858400, by fax to 01327 858500 and by e-mail to office@hscc.org.uk

[john ruston]

There are enough RSR's and pretend 911's to fill a grid!

Provides a possibility of a decent home for 2 litre sports that are being pushed out of CER by 3 litre cars.

The best bit is that it being run by an amalgamation of two of the best organisers in Historics.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by john ruston

There are enough RSR's and pretend 911's to fill a grid!

Provides a possibility of a decent home for 2 litre sports that are being pushed out of CER by 3 litre cars.

The best bit is that it being run by an amalgamation of two of the best organisers in Historics.

Yes, yes & yes, although I guess from the press release that 3 litre SR cars are eligible for Martini now.

Looking at the race dates, the Dijon meeting is same weekend as CER at Ricard, so not much chance of drawing any cars from latter, except for the reason in JR's post.

[andy97]

Shame they are not racing at the Donington Classic and Oulton Gold Cup meetings. It would be great to see this sort of series and these sorts of cars focused largely on the UK, but I guess that's not where the market/ cars/ owners are?

[Mike Bell]

I reckon a large percentage of cars at Zandvoort HGP and Dijon Motors Cup are likely to be from UK, with the likes of Masters, Lurani and (assume- not seen calendar) HGPCA present. Masters already have their own Sports Racing Masters, so maybe an opportunity for some cars to get another race at each?

[GSD]

Hope it works because it sounds fantastic. We have been restoring an Osella originally for Martini but the drop in support made us consider other options. This looks like great fun though, we should make it out for at least one of the UK rounds, hopefully both.

Hopefully the hscc can attract cars into the new classes. Glad to see they have been brave in tweaking Martini a bit.

[andy97]

Are Chevron B8s etc eligible? I assume so.

I'm not up on this era really but have they not been excluded from the Guards Trophy races?

One of the disappointments of the new rules is that it appears to now exclude the possibility of the Classic Clubmans cars getting a race with the "Martinis", and being giant killers!

[GSD]

Originally Posted by andy97

Are Chevron B8s etc eligible? I assume so.

I'm not up on this era really but have they not been excluded from the Guards Trophy races?

One of the disappointments of the new rules is that it appears to now exclude the possibility of the Classic Clubmans cars getting a race with the "Martinis", and being giant killers!

I believe b8s have been eligible for Martini for at least a year, however they understandably choose to run at the front of Guards rather than the back of Martini.

The Classic Clubmans can go giant killing against F1 , F2 and F5000 in the derek bell trophy. I seem to remember one went very well at Thruxton, cant remember if it won or not?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by andy97

Are Chevron B8s etc eligible? I assume so.
I'm not up on this era really but have they not been excluded from the Guards Trophy races?

Guards splits the classes at some events so that the B8s and the like are in own separate race. Depends a lot on track time available to the organisers at a particular event, I guess.

[john ruston]

B8's have to be eligible considering they are letting in 2litre sports.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by GSD

I believe b8s have been eligible for Martini for at least a year, however they understandably choose to run at the front of Guards rather than the back of Martini.

The Classic Clubmans can go giant killing against F1 , F2 and F5000 in the derek bell trophy. I seem to remember one went very well at Thruxton, cant remember if it won or not?

Thanks for clarification re B8s.

WRT Classic Clubmans, I suppose it depends on whether they are classed as single seater cars or not. They are interesting, and great value, "crossover cars" I suppose but I'd suggest they are more akin to sports racers than single seaters and could remain eligible for this new series.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by andy97

I see in today's Autosport that the Martini Trophy is to morph into the WEC Revival, allowing in not just the 2 Litre Group 6 and Sports 2000 cars, but also cars that raced in the WEC and similar type events, GTs and Touring Cars up to 1980.

I assume that means that the series will be open to Group 2, 4 and 5 cars then. I wonder what that means for the Martini type cars, ie will they turn up, and what else will come out to play hat isn't already catered for? Any ideas?

Somehow missed this thread. All the following posts have moved the discussion on but the problem was simply that not enough of these gorgeous and quick cars seemed inclined to enter the HSCC Martini races. There are so many of them about, you'd think there would be some fabulous grids but they are very expensive to run.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by GSD

I believe b8s have been eligible for Martini for at least a year, however they understandably choose to run at the front of Guards rather than the back of Martini.

I am surprised by this - I would have thought the idea of racing with more equal cars (S2000 and the WEC cars etc) rather than lapping MGB's and Gilberns etc would be much more appealing.

[morninggents]

It's motor racing, Simon. I think folks would much rather be in with a chance of winning than having to look in their mirrors half way through a race whilst being lapped.
I do agree that they are more akin to the Martini cars than the Guards.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by morninggents

It's motor racing, Simon. I think folks would much rather be in with a chance of winning than having to look in their mirrors half way through a race whilst being lapped.
I do agree that they are more akin to the Martini cars than the Guards.

I guess you are right... On the basis that twin cam sports racers have collapsed in price (I know of at least one Elva with fantastic history than is finding no love at levels where Merlyns sold 2 years ago) B8's must be in positive free fall... £300k suddenly seems a kings ransom for a car that is no longer competitive - we must not forget they were essentially a club car in period

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Somehow missed this thread. All the following posts have moved the discussion on but the problem was simply that not enough of these gorgeous and quick cars seemed inclined to enter the HSCC Martini races. There are so many of them about, you'd think there would be some fabulous grids but they are very expensive to run.

Too true John on expense, the very reason for their demise in period, as some can remember only too well.

[Speedy norm]

I understand they are expensive. Yet CER series in europe seems to be succesful. There was no shortage of these cars in thundersports in its day. What is the largest cost with these compared with say an F 2 car?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Speedy norm

I understand they are expensive. Yet CER series in europe seems to be succesful.

It seems CER also have concerns over costs. This recently sent out by them-

"We took a certain time to work out the best compromises possible with a thorough look at the Classic Endurance Racing. Concerns were raised throughout the year regarding the performance of the cars and the linked cost going out of control which is impacting you. We’ve listened to all the voices and therefore, we will introduce an engine allocation for this year with a limit of 2 engines for the season. It will be strictly enforced during the year with sealing, identification and controls by our scrutineering team. We thought about one engine but the discussions with the drivers and engine builders did prove it would be a better decision to go this way. Following this will be the introduction of the DFV Pre-71 engined sportscars in CER 1 which will be eligible under the condition of having the engine fitted with a 9000 RPM rev-limiter. Last but not least, the FIA Appendix K does not allow “CV Joints” half-shafts and controls will be made to ensure the rule is respected.

All of this follows a string of measure to keep the cost at a reasonable level and ensure all competitors of a level playing field. We, Peter Auto are not the only one concerned, Masters Historic Racing have been working for some time now on different way to cap the performance of the cars. We will join forces during the first semester of 2015 in order to work on the engine and the various rev-limits of the most used and performing engines (Chevy V8, Ford V8, Ford FVC, Ford DFV, etc…) in order to find a way to control and cap the performance. If possible, a set of rules will be made and will be enforced in 2016 and you’ll be updated in September 2015 to ensure you can adapt yourself. For 2015, nothing will change except the engine sealings."

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

It seems CER also have concerns over costs. This recently sent out by them-

"We took a certain time to work out the best compromises possible with a thorough look at the Classic Endurance Racing. Concerns were raised throughout the year regarding the performance of the cars and the linked cost going out of control which is impacting you. We’ve listened to all the voices and therefore, we will introduce an engine allocation for this year with a limit of 2 engines for the season. It will be strictly enforced during the year with sealing, identification and controls by our scrutineering team. We thought about one engine but the discussions with the drivers and engine builders did prove it would be a better decision to go this way. Following this will be the introduction of the DFV Pre-71 engined sportscars in CER 1 which will be eligible under the condition of having the engine fitted with a 9000 RPM rev-limiter. Last but not least, the FIA Appendix K does not allow “CV Joints” half-shafts and controls will be made to ensure the rule is respected.

All of this follows a string of measure to keep the cost at a reasonable level and ensure all competitors of a level playing field. We, Peter Auto are not the only one concerned, Masters Historic Racing have been working for some time now on different way to cap the performance of the cars. We will join forces during the first semester of 2015 in order to work on the engine and the various rev-limits of the most used and performing engines (Chevy V8, Ford V8, Ford FVC, Ford DFV, etc…) in order to find a way to control and cap the performance. If possible, a set of rules will be made and will be enforced in 2016 and you’ll be updated in September 2015 to ensure you can adapt yourself. For 2015, nothing will change except the engine sealings."

Everyone seems to be concerned by the budget you have to put to go racing, we haven't been short of entries in 2014 and I don't think we will be in 2015 but it's better to look at the future now than just waiting..!

Regulations side, we'll do some test and see what is possible to do regarding engine development and we'll see how it goes. Trying to cap the performance is one solution but not an easy thing if sticking to appendix K and we won't go any other way so we'll see if we find the appropriate method.

And Good Luck to the WEC Revival ! I'm a fair player

[p261brm]

Quote 'From the post by Mike Bell,
'the FIA Appendix K does not allow “CV Joints” half-shafts and controls will be made to ensure the rule is respected' ???

Surely this does not apply to the Chevron B36, fitted with CV joints in period? If this is being done to reduce expense, it is retrograde, the 'bunggies to day are more expensive than CV's, and unless people have their eye on the ball, more failure's. Personally I have always favoured the bunggy, simply because it helps to reduce the 'shock' on the transmission.

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by p261brm

Quote 'From the post by Mike Bell,
'the FIA Appendix K does not allow “CV Joints” half-shafts and controls will be made to ensure the rule is respected' ???

Surely this does not apply to the Chevron B36, fitted with CV joints in period? If this is being done to reduce expense, it is retrograde, the 'bunggies to day are more expensive than CV's, and unless people have their eye on the ball, more failure's. Personally I have always favoured the bunggy, simply because it helps to reduce the 'shock' on the transmission.

It does not apply to cars fitted with CV joints in period. We, CER, are waiting for FIA to let us know their position for the cars concerned.