[WEC] 2018-2019 WEC Super Season

[chernaudi]

This should be a big opportunity for private teams and maybe also car makers that want to do a customer car program. We haven't really had that in reality in the top class since Audi sold R8s to teams like Champion, Goh and the like.

And no, IMO, the Porsche RS Spyder or the Acura ARX-01 don't count. Those were LMP2 cars that were entered in a privateer oriented formula. And that's even allowing for Porsche selling RS Spyders to teams like Dyson and the ARX-01 being a re-bodied and re-engined Courage LC70 and all the HPD teams in the ALMS being recognized as privateer teams by IMSA and the ACO (basically as they did for Champion in the ALMS and LM in the R8 days).

And unless you do count that in the IMSA/ALMS context, there were no true customer cars supported by a factory teams outside of the Audi R8.

IMO, if the ACO had a sensible bone in them, they would return to rules in LMP1 that could make customer car teams a possible reality and give even some of the privateer teams a chance, at least on paper, of winning sprint races.

So much accelerated cost and technology IMO have really hurt the quantity of cars in the class, let alone the quantity of quality cars.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

I don't want to see GT3's, they're popular everywhere else, but I don't think the WEC needs them. Maybe souped up GT3's as GTE I can see. As for Suzuka, it's owned by Honda. When they enter the wec, maybe we can enjoy that track with these cars. But for now it's Toyota owned Fuji. It's not the best layout but always puts on great races. Suzuka is a nice track, but the races there aren't filled with action. It's a tough track to pass on but maybe LMP's and GTE's could change that with the traffic. Super GT races are pretty decent there.

I do agree about GT3. I don't particularly want to see it in WEC, and didn't want it in ELMS either. But worst come to worst? Well that's still kinda cool. If they told me we couldn't have a full GTE grid and we'd need GT3s...that's fine. I'll watch McLaren, Bentley and an NSX. That's cool.

Lets say we don't have LMP1s at all and LMP2 take over. And then we need LMP3....I'm fine with that. That's cool too.

Basically, I don't see the massive problem here. I really like the state of ACO racing all the way down the ladder. I think you could still have great racing and then we'd get the next gen LMP1 in a couple of years.

[chernaudi]

As mentioned, if you're a fan of a particular team or car maker, it sucks that Audi have left, Porsche are pretty much certain to be on the way out, and Toyota might follow suit. It also sucks that we don't have the insane hybrid cars. But there's also reason why it's now fading away, and maybe perhaps, it might be for the best. I don't know at this stage.

But if the ACO react (IMO, it would've helped if they were proactive instead of riding the gravy train) right, this could be a big boom in entries in LMP1, and maybe get some of the LMP2 teams with all pro ambitions to move up. The quality of a lot of the LMP2 teams is as good a lot of the better LMP900/LMP1 private teams, and even some factory teams.

You know that they say, when one door closes, another can open.

I'd actually like to see customer based GT3 as a possible alternative to GTE-Am, but I don't know the future of that class, since it's about as well subscribed at the sprint races as LMP1 is. But then again I'd love to see an increased variety in LMP1 cars and a return to the days of customer cars.

[fieldodreams79]

GT3 has it's place and it's not WEC or mixed with P-cars, imho. They are absolutely perfect as the top class at the Ring or Bathurst. No need to ruin that.

Manufacturers come and go. Always have. Right now they're coming into the IMSA series so maybe the ACO can finally open the door. ALMS did them some good a couple of decades ago...

Bat$hit crazy GT / Super GT / GTPrototype cars have always been appealing, but how long are the LMP1 rules in place? I think we're stuck for a bit, right? Not awful by any stretch.

[chernaudi]

Current rules are only good for two seasons beyond this one (2019). Of course, we don't know what the ACO will do with the 2020 rules, whether or not they'll change them or stay the course with what they originally proposed.

[carbsmith]

As a probably pointless exercise in car counts at Le Mans

1999: 48 28P 20GT (first year of LMGTP)
2000: 48 26P 22GT (first year of LMP900/675)
2001: 48 28P 20GT
2002: 50 28P 22GT
2003: 50 25P 25GT
2004: 48 25P 23GT (first year of LMP1/LMP2 eligibility)
2005: 49 26P 23GT
2006: 51 24P 27GT (last year of LMP900/LMP675 eligibility)
2007: 55 26P 29GT
2008: 56 33P 23GT
2009: 55 32P 23GT
2010: 55 30P 26GT
2011: 56 28P 28GT (LMP1 displacement reduction, LMP2 stock block+cost cap introduction)
2012: 57 33P 23GT 1NT
2013: 58 30P 26GT 1NT
2014: 58 27P 30GT 1NT (new LMP1 regulations)
2015: 56 26P 23GT
2016: 60 32P 27GT 1NT
2017: 60 31P 29GT (new LMP2 regulations)

The LMP900/675 years do not come across as particularly strong years for prototype racing. The high finishing places GT cars achieved suggest as much as well. It's clear there's some other external factors having a significant impact on prototype car counts considering 2008 and 2009 don't represent any major regulation changes. Yes privateers have generally moved from LMP1 to LMP2 but that's an indicator of how much better LMP2 has become since the days when they qualified in the 3:50s, got passed on the straights by GT1 cars, and all seemed to go out in a spectacular blaze sometime around 9pm Saturday night. (the last part of which is more or less LMP1's job these days) They're not significantly more or less competitive for overall victory than petrol LMP1 as a category during some of the diesel years (eg. in 2010 the first non-stock block petrol car qualified 10s off pole) or many of the LMP900 cars that were entered (only 10 other cars qualified within 10s of the Bentleys the year they won)

[chernaudi]

The only negative that I'd point out is that you probably should've broken it down even further between classes (LMP900/675 and LMP1/2 and GT1/2 and GTE-Pro/Am).

For example, out of the 31 prototypes entered this year at LM, 25 were LMP2s and only 6 were LMP1s. In 2000, there were 20 LMP900s vs 6 LMP675s

For several years GT2s did heavily out number GT1s. And when GT1 died off we had GT2 split into GTE-Pro and GTE-Am.

The biggest thing that we can't control in any of this--past. present, or future--is whatever the market will bear. It depends on if a class becomes a buyer's market/bull market or a stagnant/shrinking/bear market. There has to be supply and demand. And both needs need to be met. Good market=a demand and someone to supply it. If neither one or both can't be met, that usually means a declining market.

[chernaudi]

And how about this thought? Sometimes you need a good storm to get a beautiful day in return.

[Makaze]

Penske missed the last Indycar race(he never does that) to be in Europe to have talks for a privateer can win LM overall in 2020.That was one the the points of going racing in IMSA DPi in 2018 to get ready for LM in 2020.

2020 Privateer LMP1(only 2mj RWD?) very much lighter than Factory Hybrid LMP1(8mj + AWD).

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Makaze

Penske missed the last Indycar race(he never does that) to be in Europe to have talks for a privateer can win LM overall in 2020.That was one the the points of going racing in IMSA DPi in 2018 to get ready for LM in 2020.

2020 Privateer LMP1(only 2mj RWD?) very much lighter than Factory Hybrid LMP1(8mj + AWD).

Umm... where did this come from?

[Makaze]

Originally Posted by deggis

Umm... where did this come from?

Facts...
Penske wants to have LM overall win before his death
Honda/HPD/AHM/Penske are in talks for 2020 LM program
Penske was in Europe during Indycar RA race weekend talking to ACO/WEC
Penske knew that that Porsche was leaving

So with those four things anybody can guess where Penske and Honda is going in 2020.

The only question now is how they do it.

1) privateer LMP1 runs much lighter than Factory LMP1
2) allow FCEV in 2020 but then the cost goes up(more Honda money needed)
Honda might back that because their new Honda/GM FC(smaller size,cheaper to make and more powerful) debuts in 2020.

[chernaudi]

Whatever the case, I doubt that any new factory teams will be coming into LMP1 before 2020. It'll take at least that long for the ACO to sort out the rules and for any lawsuits (dieselgate or the EU/German anti-trust/anti-competition, and anything like that in the US and Japan) to get sorted out.

Until then, we can hope that the privateers take advantage of a reprieve from getting crushed by factory teams and huge technology. Anything beyond that is just a guess right now.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

The only negative that I'd point out is that you probably should've broken it down even further between classes (LMP900/675 and LMP1/2 and GT1/2 and GTE-Pro/Am).

That was addressed. In reality most teams will race in whichever of the two happens to make more sense at the time based on things like car availability and reliability. (eg. Dyson went from LMP900 to LMP675 to LMP1 to LMP2 to LMP1 and most of the privateer cars until 2011 could be entered in both classes) That's even reflected with the current entrants, where several LMP2 teams came from LMP1 and all current and current likely future privateer LMP1 teams come from LMP2.

If the only car in LMP2 was the Riley and ORECA had an LMP1 car people would be falling over themselves to buy LMP1 cars because they'd like a car that actually works.

[chernaudi]

And I have a question to ask? What would we rather have, taking into account the positives and negatives, the cyclical nature of road racing, or have it be like NASCAR or F1 where things tend to be more stable, but also more predictable?

[YZFrider]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And I have a question to ask? What would we rather have, taking into account the positives and negatives, the cyclical nature of road racing, or have it be like NASCAR or F1 where things tend to be more stable, but also more predictable?

I'll bite. It would appear that despite the boom and bust nature of road racing, manufacturers always have a stake. I believe this is because of the road relevance - particularly Touring/GT racing, and to some extent prototypes too. Even when manufacturers pull out en mass, privateers, specialist constructors, and/or customer programs have always filled the void.

NASCAR historically has always been about the show. Their autocratic rule has helped keep stability through it's history but since the early/mid 2000's they have now gone off the deep end. They are a perfect example of meddling too much into their product with mixed results. They also have what I see as an identity crisis in regards to the car which sort of ties back in to their philosophy of putting on a good show...hey there's a reason why the comparison to WWE is often brought up

Off the top of my head, the Australian V8 supercars have been a great model of stability; strong number of entries, manufacturer support, solid competiton, contrived racing kept to a minimum from what I see.

I would like a model between what we have now and the supercars

[Simmi]

WEC statement: http://www.fiawec.com/en/news/wec-st...from-lmp1/5324

precipitous: (of an action) done suddenly and without careful consideration.

[J Jay]

The ACO have every right to be annoyed - if they also accept that they relied on manufacturer investment for too long with no desire to curb it until Audi left.

The worrying part is that from the way their statement reads, it looks like they're going to stubbornly carry on as such, probably assuming that the The Peugeot That Was Promised will finally arrive. Good luck with that...

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by YZFrider

I'll bite. It would appear that despite the boom and bust nature of road racing, manufacturers always have a stake. I believe this is because of the road relevance - particularly Touring/GT racing, and to some extent prototypes too.

That's coming to an end, though, as road cars are going places where race cars simply can't follow.

With the advent of electric and driver-less cars, motorsport will be faced with the biggest challenge in its history and one that might very well kill it off for good. If motorsport is to survive this challenge they need to transform themselves into something quite different from what it is today - roadgoing relevance will not be a factor anymore since roadcars will be just so different from racecars.

I think the role model for racing should be horseback riding (esp. show jumping) and sailing. Like racing, both are sports that are based on a means of transport and both managed to survive when that means of transport fell out of mainstream usage by styling themselves as an upscale gentlemen's sport. And just like nobody would think to base America's Cup boat specs on Windjammers or would use anything less than the most specialized breed of horse for show jumping, I don't think racing cars in the future will be influenced very much by today's production cars.

[Akrapovic]

If they want to carry on this way then I'm fine with that. The Peugeot won't arrive, Toyota will leave because they'll get bored fighting themselves and we'll be left with a growing list of private cars at the front (not in 2018, I think that's too optimistic), and I'll be happy with that.

I know there's a lot of panic, but the alternatives seem pretty awesome. Even if ACO turned around and said "Ok the new class structure is LMP1-P, LMP2, a small number of LMP3s, GTE Pro, and GT3". I'm fine with that. It still seems absolutely bad ass.

I know I'm pre-empting here, but there's FAR too much "my series is better than your series" nonsense here, and if ACO even sniff at DPi style regulations we'll have the usual people come out of the woodwork and say I told you so...as if IMSA somehow wasn't borrowing ACO and SRO regulations anyway. So even if it went that way...that's fine with me too.

I don't see Le Mans collapsing. I potentially see less TV coverage and maybe slightly (slightly!) reduced viewing figures and attendance, maybe less overseas races. Again, I don't have a huge problem with this. It might even lose the word championship from its name! I'm not sure how that effects me as a viewer, but on the face of it it seems just fine.

I love the LMP1-H, but I also love privateer racing. This seems like a win-win to me.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I think the role model for racing should be horseback riding (esp. show jumping) and sailing. Like racing, both are sports that are based on a means of transport and both managed to survive when that means of transport fell out of mainstream usage by styling themselves as an upscale gentlemen's sport. And just like nobody would think to base America's Cup boat specs on Windjammers or would use anything less than the most specialized breed of horse for show jumping, I don't think racing cars in the future will be influenced very much by today's production cars.

Agreed. I think the future of motorsport isn't necessarily electric, but distancing itself from road car versions. You can even have the noise by using hydrogen internal combustion engines. With sportscar racing especially being funded by a lot of wealthy amateurs buying customer cars, I can see that being the way the market goes.

[Speed-King]

I know there's a lot of panic, but the alternatives seem pretty awesome. Even if ACO turned around and said "Ok the new class structure is LMP1-P, LMP2, a small number of LMP3s, GTE Pro, and GT3". I'm fine with that. It still seems absolutely bad ass.

There are two problematic areas, that I can see with that scenario, Akrapovic:

1. We don't know how much money Porsche and Audi pumped into the WEC - their pullout might very well shake up the series' financial basis. Same thing happened to the ALMS after 2008 and after another four years Don Panoz got tired of propping up the series with his own money. I'm not sure LMEM can hold out for that long, if they do indeed rely on the contributions from the P1-manufacturers. Yes, there's GTE as well, but I'm lead to believe that the manufacturer contributions from the production-based ranks are much smaller than from the overall class. Which brings me to:

2. The GTE manufacturers are already unhappy with the amount of exposure they are getting as things are - hence the talk about qualifying races. And that's while playing second fiddle to bonafide, F1-budget-level works entries. I can't see them being particularly excited about the prospect of being overshadowed by guys who build their cars in a shed. There will be those that say that the main show should be where the manufacturers are, i.e. GTE.

[mariantic]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I think the role model for racing should be horseback riding (esp. show jumping) and sailing. Like racing, both are sports that are based on a means of transport and both managed to survive when that means of transport fell out of mainstream usage by styling themselves as an upscale gentlemen's sport. And just like nobody would think to base America's Cup boat specs on Windjammers or would use anything less than the most specialized breed of horse for show jumping, I don't think racing cars in the future will be influenced very much by today's production cars.

Wow! that is one of the most intelligent and insightful things I have ever read on this board
I agree completely. Road relevance and Manufacturer involvement have no place in motorsport going forward (except possibly Formula E). For WEC (the subject of this topic remember) this probably means the end, unless privateer LMP1 happens really quickly.

I see a season of P1 and P2 privateers doing the Florida 36 hrs (brilliant idea and going to be huge), Silverstone & Spa 6hrs, Le Mans 24 and cherry pick around the world from there.

Interesting times...

Mariantic

[chernaudi]

As JayJ said, I can understand the ACO's sour grapes stance, but they created the environment. They shafted private teams for too long, and gave into factory money mostly because they though as long as they could keep Audi Sport around (and their cash infusions) and get someone else in to help, they'd be fine.

That's not how the world works. You can't always gamble on the gravy train always being there. I'm saying this as a dirt poor person from an economically crappy region of the US.

It's clear that the ACO have no contingency plan. They should've woken up when Audi left. But Porsche leaving not only IMO shows that the ACO's direction is flawed, but they didn't really have any back up plan whatsoever. You fail to plan, you plan to fail.

And, by and large, they only have themselves to blame, like ALMS and Grand Am did.

[deggis]

One question mark is solved as it appears WEC as a name is safe. There just won't be a world title in LMP1-H.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report...e-porsche-exit

Series sources are maintaining that the WEC will still offer full world championship titles for prototype drivers - in which the contestants in LMP1 and LMP2 will continue to score points - and GT drivers and manufacturers.

It appears likely that the LMP1 manufacturers' standings will now be downgraded to cup status.

WEC boss Gerard Neveu had previously stated in the wake of Audi's departure from LMP1 at the end of last year that the series needed two manufacturers in the top class of the series to maintain full world status.

He made the comment after speculation that three manufacturers were required in LMP1 under the terms of series promoter the Automobile Club de l'Ouest's latest agreement with the FIA.

Above is pretty confusing though. How I understand is that this would be now the "non-full world status".

[chernaudi]

Or just get rid of LMP1-H vs LMP1 privateer and have one combined LMP1 class.

The World Championship for Drivers being combined between LMP1 and LMP2 also IMO never made sense.