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Old 7 Apr 2008, 01:47 (Ref:2171818)   #1
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davehenrie should be qualifying in the top 10 on the griddavehenrie should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
How long til we rank the RS Spyder along side the 962 family?

The 917? The IMSA Protos, 956 and 962? Does the RS Spyder deserve ranking along side these famous cars yet?

dh
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Old 7 Apr 2008, 01:49 (Ref:2171820)   #2
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rich07 has a real shot at the podium!rich07 has a real shot at the podium!rich07 has a real shot at the podium!rich07 has a real shot at the podium!rich07 has a real shot at the podium!
An outright Le Mans win would help but the chances of that are slim at the moment.
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Old 7 Apr 2008, 05:34 (Ref:2171903)   #3
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The Badger has a real shot at the podium!The Badger has a real shot at the podium!The Badger has a real shot at the podium!The Badger has a real shot at the podium!
It never will be as great as the above mentioned cars .... The rules wont stay stable enough for long enough for it to make an impact on sportscars like the 956/962 did .
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Old 7 Apr 2008, 06:52 (Ref:2171926)   #4
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The359 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
And the 956/962s were winning a multitude of overall wins, while the RS Spyders are only now occassionally achieving that.

People are moe likely to remember a race winner rather than a class winner.
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Old 7 Apr 2008, 07:13 (Ref:2171933)   #5
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Absolutely nothing like yet........
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Old 7 Apr 2008, 09:52 (Ref:2172057)   #6
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The Badger has a real shot at the podium!The Badger has a real shot at the podium!The Badger has a real shot at the podium!The Badger has a real shot at the podium!
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Old 7 Apr 2008, 12:35 (Ref:2172239)   #7
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Not even close - not in the top class so will be looked at like the various 911 derivatives over the years, class leading but not a great!!
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Old 7 Apr 2008, 12:51 (Ref:2172264)   #8
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Graz should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridGraz should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridGraz should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridGraz should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
It never will in reality. It doesn't have the charisma of the 956/962. The 956/962 is one of the all time classics. Sure the RS Spyder is a fine racing car but it hasn't yet reached comparison with the success level of the Audi's over the years and the Audi is no 956/962.
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Old 7 Apr 2008, 13:44 (Ref:2172335)   #9
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I'd see the RS Spyder as being the spiritual heir to the Porsche 908 - a genuinely good car and very potent in the right hands on the right track, but in terms of big classics, a touch overshadowed by the R10 (917?) and Peugeot 908 (512?)
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Old 7 Apr 2008, 16:40 (Ref:2172461)   #10
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How long til we rank the RS Spyder along side the 962 family?
It will never happen
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Old 7 Apr 2008, 19:40 (Ref:2172588)   #11
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With Penske's stellar 07 ALMS season, the Spyder is already right on the heels of the 917, 962 or 935.
Beating the nominally faster opposition on a regular basis is a major feat, and however the rest of the Spyder's career will turnout with the new restrictions, the 07 season was as good as a season can be.
I think the Spyder will be remembered as the car that could, but wasn't allowed to.
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Old 7 Apr 2008, 20:16 (Ref:2172620)   #12
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The Spyder is a great LMP2 car, but still an LMP2 car. If the rules in the ALMS were fair and square and not dictated by entertainment value, it would never stand a chance against the LMP1 cars.
So it's not in the same league as previous Porsche prototypes. If however, Porsche take this as a training tool for a 2010 P1 coupe, then that might be a totally different thing. But currently it is a car that should never be allowed to fight for the overall win.
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Old 7 Apr 2008, 20:22 (Ref:2172633)   #13
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JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
It will be remembered alongside cars like the Porsche 908, a giant killer that paved the way for the big banger.
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Old 7 Apr 2008, 23:49 (Ref:2172803)   #14
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Why are the 917 and 956/962 legendary? Is it only LeMans, or is it LeMans and every other race that was on the calendar?

What is the perception of the 935? It won LeMans also in 1979, and laid waste to the other races it ran in.

I personally don't have a doubt that the RS Spyder has changed the face of P2. It has proven to be an extraordinary vehicle. It has now won in private hands. In ALMS it has consistantly beaten Audi, which nobody has been able to do prior.

Question also, is the Audi R8 viewed in the same light as the 917 and 956/962? If not, why not? I am actually getting the feeling that the coupe bodywork, which the older Porsche's had, helps set them apart/makes them 'special.' Is that the case?

I am not at all arguing about the Porsches, I agree, they are legendary cars. The Ferrari 512 is legendary too, but far less successful. The 312 series Ferraris were very successful, but for the most part faded into history (their giving LeMans '72 to Matra, and then losing in '73 didn't help). The Matras won LeMans three years in a row, but don't have much 'legendary' status. They were the same overdogs that the 917 was, certainly in 73 and 74.

Again, no argument from me, just trying to understand the 'whys.' I think the coupe bodywork really has some some effect in the equation.

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Old 8 Apr 2008, 06:57 (Ref:2172886)   #15
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Originally Posted by skycafe
Question also, is the Audi R8 viewed in the same light as the 917 and 956/962? If not, why not? I am actually getting the feeling that the coupe bodywork, which the older Porsche's had, helps set them apart/makes them 'special.' Is that the case?

I am not at all arguing about the Porsches, I agree, they are legendary cars. The Ferrari 512 is legendary too, but far less successful. The 312 series Ferraris were very successful, but for the most part faded into history (their giving LeMans '72 to Matra, and then losing in '73 didn't help). The Matras won LeMans three years in a row, but don't have much 'legendary' status. They were the same overdogs that the 917 was, certainly in 73 and 74.

Again, no argument from me, just trying to understand the 'whys.' I think the coupe bodywork really has some some effect in the equation.

robert.
Very good question and I doubt there is a single factor that makes a car great and lifts it above the rest.

The 935, 917, 956/962 and Ferrari 512 were all built in quite high numbers and available as customer cars. Over the years many classic liverys appeared. These stick in the mind maybe and memorys are built around them and the great races that happened between the

I dont think many if any Matras, 312's ever escaped the factory. You could also add the Porsche 936 and Alfa 33t. Both race winners, bit rarely seen in private hands (wkt alfa, and Joest, Kremer aside) and therefore not built in large numbers


As to will the Spyder become a legend? not yet. I think it will always be a case of what might have been. Had it been a P1 and taken the fight direct to Audi and won it would be a different story IMHO.

I would not compare it either to the Porsche 908, that car was a masterpiece, and my favorite of all time so i am bias!
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Old 8 Apr 2008, 13:08 (Ref:2173160)   #16
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It would probably be possible to come up with some sort of equation for working out what constituted a 'classic', but most of me feels that would be a fatuous exercise!

All sorts of factors come into it - in no particular order I'd see them as being:
  • Winning Le Mans outright
  • Distinctive body shape - and a coupe will probably always outscore an open car, and here the 935 probably loses out thanks to its link (tenuous as it may be) to the 911
  • Widespread availability - with lots of liveries to argue over
  • Widespread competition

If we think about it this goes some way to explaining why the 917 and 956/962 would score over the 936 (availability) or 908 (Le Mans win), and probably why nobody is mentioning the WSC-95 (four races do not a classic make).

In short the 917 is always going to be a classic due to its intimidating nature, dominant wins, fantastic looks, and Steve McQueen. The 956/962 is up there because virtually every driver worth their salt raced one and they were absolutely everywhere. Other Porsches (and other cars too) have that to live up to.
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Old 8 Apr 2008, 15:24 (Ref:2173240)   #17
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Old 8 Apr 2008, 15:28 (Ref:2173243)   #18
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Originally Posted by skycafe
I am actually getting the feeling that the coupe bodywork, which the older Porsche's had, helps set them apart/makes them 'special.' Is that the case?

It probably doesn't apply to most here (and its a secondary argument/consideration, I guess), but from a purely aesthetic point of view, I'll happily answer 'yes' to that. For me, the open LMPs are generally so dreadfully dull..... The Bentley was a breath of fresh air a few years back, simply because it looked the part, the Peugeots now for me are just the same. The 956/962s and, even more so the 917s just looked right..... sportscar malevolence personified......
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Old 8 Apr 2008, 15:35 (Ref:2173245)   #19
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http://excellence-mag.com/art2/art2p1.html

Here's an article from excellence about Chris Dyson's comparison about the 962 & the 9R6...

The RS Spyder has beaten the mighty R10 & has now won Sebring outright. That has to count for something...All it needs is a little luck at Le Mans and it could do the same there. And unfortunately, we'll never see it run Daytona...

Let's revisit this question at the end of the LMS & ALMS season...If it manages a win at PLM & at least a podium at LM, then the Spyder has a good argument going for it. The only question is how long the RS Spyder will remain successful, because the 956/962 was dominant for more than a decade.

Also, as far as modern prototypes go, I think the R8 and the RS Spyder could be remembered as the dominant prototypes.*


*I say could because the Porsche is still racing.

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Old 8 Apr 2008, 17:15 (Ref:2173312)   #20
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The RS Spyder has beaten the mighty R10 & has now won Sebring outright. That has to count for something...
If you let loose on restrictors, tires, weight, fuel capacity etc. even the 997 would propably stand a chance of winning Sebring overall. The only things Sebring has shown is that the Spyder has good reliability and the ALMS really needs to drop one of its LMP classes.
Let's wait to see if the car wins it's class at LeMans...
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Old 8 Apr 2008, 18:47 (Ref:2173370)   #21
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The Ferrari 512 is legendary too, but far less successful.
"Far less successful", is an understatement. I think the 512 was "legendary" simply because it was the only car that could run with the 917, but it certainly couldn't beat it and wasn't very successful! As far as I can remember, the 512 only won one race (1970 Sebring) and barely beat a 908 Porsche driven by the Actor Steve McQueen and Brian Redman at that! In the end, they had to get Mario Andretti to transfer into that 512 from his retired Ferrari 512to run down the 908 and win! If competition is the key, then the RS Spyder should be high on the list of legendary cars since it has routinely beaten cars from the higher P1 class.

DK

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Old 8 Apr 2008, 19:05 (Ref:2173376)   #22
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dxk1 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the griddxk1 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the griddxk1 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Just to clarify, I meant Peter Revson on the last post not Brian Redman. Sorry about that.

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Old 9 Apr 2008, 00:26 (Ref:2173533)   #23
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Originally Posted by Aysedasi
the 917s just looked right..... sportscar malevolence personified......
The Chaparrals, Fords and the Lolas, and the Porsche 904, 907 are part of my wide eyed youth, and I remember being jaw dropped at age 13 seeing a Gulf 917 ripping around the East Banking at Daytona---"sportscar malevolence personified" is indeed the right terminology

I have said it before, I have always liked the open cars too. The 'romanace' of racing off into the murky night fully exposed . But, I admit that was the terrain of the smaller capacity cars, the underdogs if you will, so that lent to their romance.

But there is something stirring about the coupe shape...........

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Old 9 Apr 2008, 00:35 (Ref:2173537)   #24
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I would not compare it either to the Porsche 908, that car was a masterpiece, and my favorite of all time so i am bias!
Lost out at the LeMans win in 1969 by about 100 yards I think it was--and a lot of that had to be down to JB Ickx behind the wheel of the Ford that won?

Coupe bodied one came third (I think) in 1972 at LeMans, long into the car's life.

And, few things compare in my mind to 908/03's. There is a slight oddity to the shape that makes them compelling and loveable, and the wins in the Targa solidify their classic status.

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Old 9 Apr 2008, 04:13 (Ref:2173591)   #25
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Both cars were designed to take advantage of different rules. And both cars have been successful so far. Anyway, we'll have to re-examine where the Spyder stands after 5 years.

In the meantime, let's enjoy this pic of the 2 Dyson cars...

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