LMP1 indipendants to run GT1 6.0 V12 production engines?

[knighty]

ok, so I have just watched the start of the barcelona round, and the main talking point is the Aston is well in the mix with the diesels.......on another post I calculated based on Aston GT1 power figures and restrictor size, that a 6.0 V12 with the LMP1 air con allowance added on, is producing about 695bhp......and I have a tenner that says Prodrive have pushed this figure to 700bhp.......

so whats stopping say for exaplle rollcentre/Oreca/Bob berridge etc purchasing a V12 aston or ferrari V12 production engine, which is a homologated GT1 engine, converting it to LMP1 spec, then go racing........as it seems to me that the aston engine does have the legs over the Judd units now.......admittedly, I dont want to take anything away from the car - the Lola coupe looks pretty handy too.

[AU N EGL]

SOunds Good Knighty. I would also love to see and hear this. But are NA V12s or V10s really in flavor with the ACO?

[Francesco]

i wouldn't rate the Lola Charouz as a "independent"... there is more Prodrive staff there than there ever was in BMS or Larbre box in the last 2 seasons!

but it is certainly a interesting solution, which is going very good... the Ferrari engine are probably too much expensive but... let's see what the future will get

[knighty]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

SOunds Good Knighty. I would also love to see and hear this. But are NA V12s or V10s really in flavor with the ACO?

I think any manufacturer currently in Gt1 is of great interest to the ACO, as they want them to step up a class to LMP1....... hence they homologated the Aston & Ferrari V12's and the Corvette V8 as 6.0 LMP1 engines.......

but my point is whats stopping say henri pescarolo taking an Aston V12 down to a good F3 engine tuner, like say Sodemo or Spiess.....hey presto 700bhp

[johntt]

What Audi and Peugeot have always said in the defence of their diesels (and quite rightly imo) is that all you need to do to be competitive with them is get a petrol LMP1 to exceed 650hp, combined with the weight advantage of having a petrol engine. The ACO's rules seen to me to be trying to entice more manufacturers into LMP1. It also helps close the gap between the diesels and petrols.

I reckon we may see a Porsche LMP1 as a result of this; the GT1 and LMP1 '98 used 3.6l flat 6 biturbos as seen in the Porsche 911 Turbo / GT2 at the time, and the current turbo is 3.8l iirc. With the performance breaks available Porsche could easily make a decent P1 that could do well as a semi-works customer car given their aversion to full works teams.

[zac510]

It definitely looks like the privateers might have missed a trick.
But I'm tempted to say that some of it might be progress from Lola- the P2 coupe is doing quite well on debut too.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Francesco

i wouldn't rate the Lola Charouz as a "independent"... there is more Prodrive staff there than there ever was in BMS or Larbre box in the last 2 seasons!

Yeah, it's old news that it gets backing from Prodrive but Howard-Chappell as team manager and every mechanic having AMR suits? Seems like they just want to hide this effort behind the Charouz name incase of failures. Let's see if the car livery starts so suddenly see more green colour in it.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by knighty

I think any manufacturer currently in Gt1 is of great interest to the ACO, as they want them to step up a class to LMP1....... hence they homologated the Aston & Ferrari V12's and the Corvette V8 as 6.0 LMP1 engines.......

but my point is whats stopping say henri pescarolo taking an Aston V12 down to a good F3 engine tuner, like say Sodemo or Spiess.....hey presto 700bhp

Ok I see where your coming from. Good ideas

[SebringMG]

The disadvantage of the Gt1 engine is the weight - have seen somewhere that they weigh 100kg more than a Judd - so yes more power but the weight distribution is not so good.

The biggest problem for the privateers is that they insist on developing their own chassis (imo) - Henri was allready whinging about the Aston during the race......oh well nothing changes :P

[broadrun96]

What is th weight difference though between the 2 diesels and their assorted needs (turbos, etc) and the AM GT1 engine? I'm guessing it can't be too much and prob works out in favor of the GT1

[bobmilligan]

The production based engines have to have been homologated for GT1. I think this was a Pratt and Miller initiative so they could keep all the rule breaks they've manged to negotiate over the years for their rusty old two valve pushrod. Rather than have to start with a clean sheet of paper and be up against Ferraris, Mercedes or whoever.

[FIRE]

Is it cheaper to run a GT1 engine instead of a Judd or AER?

[dj choc ice]

i would think a GT1 engine would cost more to buy and run than a judd and an AER for sure but i would almost certainly believe with say an aston V12 you would get more support form the engine maker/manufacturer.

[knighty]

ok, so we are concerned about cost and weight:

Cost - last year, an LMP team owner told me directly on the phone that he was paying Judd £250,000 for a seasons engines for a single car......thats a lot of money, and could easily finance the development of an independant engine programme, and if a few teams clubbed together, it would be even cheaper.

Weight - I read in race car engineering that the Corvette LS7 GT1 Engine built by Katech weighs 130Kg, and the Aston is not far off either......a Judd is about the same wiight......as for a production based engine being 100Kg over weight is just plain wide of the mark.......in short, all the LMP1 engine weights are very comparable, either bespoke race units or production based. I think you could say within a 30Kg tolerance

I was not referring to Charouz being an independant, far from it, I was speculating about other teams spotting a performance loophole and exploiting it.

and yes, as per my original post above, the Lola coupe is a flyer for sure, I'm certainly not debating that.

As for the LS7 being a rusty push-rod.....dont make me split my sides laughing - its the most impressive engine programme I have ever seen, as detailed in race engine magazine, its even semi stressed in the Corvette, so woul install well into an LMP1...... the engine is one of the main reasons they whipped Aston

[duke_toaster]

Don't teams ballast the cars up to the minimum weight because they build them a bit light, anyway?

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by knighty

ok, so we are concerned about cost and weight:

The most EXPENSIVE thing to add to a race car is "Lightness."


Yes they build race cars under wt, so ballast can be added where it is needed, down low in the center of the car.

[The359]

Yes, the GT1 engine problem is not its weight, but the location of its weight. Ballast you can put down low, an engine you don't have a lot of options with, and it can hinder the handling.

[cjent]

Since the Lola AM finished 3d at Barcelona and the rules say production GT1 engines are legal, I'm sure other cars will appear. Would Ferrari or others go back to producing a few LMP1's?
Corvette is rumored to building one.

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by The359

Yes, the GT1 engine problem is not its weight, but the location of its weight. Ballast you can put down low, an engine you don't have a lot of options with, and it can hinder the handling.

and dont forget aero problems as well, big tall bulky engine needs usually a bulkier ibger rear bodywork which increases drag, although i dont think the engine would have a huge factor in that, especially nowadays as race engines are pretty compact for their size.

one thing that concerns me though with the GT1 engines allowed in LMP1 is wether a P1 team can get through a loophole and fit say a 7.0 chevy V8 in a LMP1 using the excuse of "its a production engine" to bypass the 6.0 engine size limit?

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by cjent

Since the Lola AM finished 3d at Barcelona and the rules say production GT1 engines are legal,

but do the rules say HOW MANY engines must be produced?

[broadrun96]

the bigger and taller engines aero interference is somewhat mitigated by the coupe body style, correct? As for the higher cog, is it much worse than other race engines making the same range of hp?
The loophole wouldnt really exist since the rules say clearly there is a size limit and so the Vette engine would have to be modified to run in LMP1. I'm sure Chevy and the engineers are looking into it right now, even if it was just to sell the engines to privateers.

[supermario21]

1000 engines must be produced. Same rule applies to P2 cars who wish to run with GT2 engines.

[chewymonster]

Does Peugeot and Lola Aston Martin run the bigger restrictors from the air conditioner? If they do, do they have an actual air conditioner?

The extra restrictor might be giving more horsepower than an AC takes away.

[The Badger]

Could you for example , use the engine outta the C6R and sleeve it down to 6 litres ?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Could you for example , use the engine outta the C6R and sleeve it down to 6 litres ?

Yes, Art. 1.1.2 a as it applies to Art. 5.1.2 a

L.P.