Ferrari Are At It Again - Page 3

gert · 25 Jul 2010, 14:23 (Ref:2732331)

As for the poll, I voted "no".

They may have used team orders (probably so), and have manipulated the result.
However I don't think they cheated.

Fox89 · 25 Jul 2010, 14:24 (Ref:2732332)

For the record, I also understand why Ferrari did it. And I understand as a team principal the thought would have crossed my mind as well. But what team orders like this do is cheat one of your drivers out of a possible good result. Felipe Massa is being punished for doing the better job on the day.

He lead out of turn one. He held off Alonso when he did try a fair overtake. And there were phases of the race where Massa had more pace as well. It just shows a complete lack of respect towards a loyal driver. "Sorry Felipe. Fernando has done better in the earlier races this season therefore you have to surrender your hard-earned win to him, that's best for the team."

I see why they've done it. It was a logical tactical move. Personally? It disgusts me.

maximus · 25 Jul 2010, 14:24 (Ref:2732333)

Ha ha, the interview on the BBC right now with the commercial manager at Ferrari I think? He is really squirming!

**Adam43** · 25 Jul 2010, 14:24 (Ref:2732334)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

To me, it cuts to the heart of the question - was it team orders or not. If yes, then they cheated. If not, then they didn't!

Yep. And considering the rage Ferrari had (under previous management*) over the McLaren 'lying' I wonder what should happen.
*and where is he now?

For me it also demonstrates what is the root cause - the rule is stupid. This is part of the sport, always has been. Lets get this changes. Also I would like to say that I wouldn't necessarily do the same, but I support that teams should be a allowed to do what they like in this situation. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean they should be allowed to do it. I do not run Ferrari.

EvilPumpkin · 25 Jul 2010, 14:25 (Ref:2732335)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralf fan

They actually made the race interesting today. Especially all the post race interviews.

Can 't argue with that!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralf fan

And really Massa has no chance of beating Fernando. He has generally been 0.5 seconds slower all season. He was slower today as well.

So what? He was in front. If Alonso was better than him - which isn't always the same as faster - then he should have been able to get past him without any kind of intervention.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralf fan

Ferrari have done the best for their team IMO and I'd have done the same.

Then I'm sorry, but you would have been cheating. Rules are rules, even if they're not necessarily good rules. It should not be the case that you get to pick which rules you obey and which you don't, based on whether it suits you or not at the time.

Ferrari are the first to bring in a team of lawyers to put in some obscure interpretation of an item of the rules if they think it will benefit them and detriment another team.

**Bononi** · 25 Jul 2010, 14:25 (Ref:2732336)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gert

As for the poll, I voted "no".

They may have used team orders (probably so), and have manipulated the result.
However I don't think they cheated.

Can you elaborate on that ??

Sodemo · 25 Jul 2010, 14:25 (Ref:2732337)

RAGE!!!111

EvilPumpkin · 25 Jul 2010, 14:26 (Ref:2732339)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gert

As for the poll, I voted "no".

They may have used team orders (probably so), and have manipulated the result.
However I don't think they cheated.

Erm...if they did use team orders, then they did. The rule is clear. If they used team orders to affect the outcome of the race, they cheated.

Flat12-Aircool · 25 Jul 2010, 14:26 (Ref:2732340)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wims

Didnt Hamilton ask the team if they had instructed Jenson to not try to pass? Thats how I read it.

Yes it was something like that, but the point was that he thought both drivers had been told to "Save fuel". So he was fully prepared to defend against Jenson but wasn't sure if Jenson was going to attack or not. To me it's an entirely different situation to the cowardly scene we've watched today.

**Bononi** · 25 Jul 2010, 14:27 (Ref:2732343)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

So what? He was in front. If Alonso was better than him - which isn't always the same as faster - then he should have been able to get past him without any kind of intervention.

Exactly. This is the main issue. He tried once and couldn't and what he did ? Radio tells it all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

Then I'm sorry, but you would have been cheating. Rules are rules, even if they're not necessarily good rules. It should not be the case that you get to pick which rules you obey and which you don't, based on whether it suits you or not at the time.

Ferrari are the first to bring in a team of lawyers to put in some obscure interpretation of an item of the rules if they think it will benefit them and detriment another team.

Totally agree. No one can dispute that.

gert · 25 Jul 2010, 14:29 (Ref:2732345)

It disgusts me as well, but the logic in this situation prevails.

You don't think McLaren/Red Bull will do the same and ask Button/Hamilton/ Vettel/Webber to make room for hsi teammate in equal circumstances?
The way it is executed or perceived may be different, but the effect and result will be the same.

**Adam43** · 25 Jul 2010, 14:30 (Ref:2732347)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

Erm...if they did use team orders, then they did. The rule is clear. If they used team orders to affect the outcome of the race, they cheated.

This point is spot on.

Although I like the blatant disregard for the rule. In a "make it more interesting" way!

I am also loving the rage that is out there.

"Fernado is faster than you. Can you confirm you understand that message".
"Ok mate, good lad, stick with him now, sorry".

This added to the race for me. As did the swearing and the name calling that happened at the time.

"Juicy, isn't it". - Martin Brundle.

Pingguest · 25 Jul 2010, 14:31 (Ref:2732348)

In my opinion Ferrari did a team order. And it was unacceptable and illegal. Considering all circumstances - the anniversary of Massa's huge accident, how far we are in the season and Massa's performances of today - I think Ferrari shouldn't had given a team order. They robbed us from a great battle for the victory.

ralf fan · 25 Jul 2010, 14:32 (Ref:2732349)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

Then I'm sorry, but you would have been cheating. Rules are rules, even if they're not necessarily good rules. It should not be the case that you get to pick which rules you obey and which you don't, based on whether it suits you or not at the time.

I agree with that but then I think its a bit of a stupid rule. Most teams use some sort of team orders anyway. Ferrari did it very purposely and hence they might get punished badly. Who knows.

CLIP-Motorsport · 25 Jul 2010, 14:32 (Ref:2732350)

I think it was blatant use of team orders which is against the rules, weather you like the rule or not is irrelevent. I hope the FIA punish accordingly.

**Bononi** · 25 Jul 2010, 14:33 (Ref:2732351)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gert

It disgusts me as well, but the logic in this situation prevails.

Again, can you elaborate on "logic", tell me about logic, I want to know what is that logic. Tell me about logic !

Fox89 · 25 Jul 2010, 14:33 (Ref:2732352)

Quote:

You don't think McLaren/Red Bull will do the same and ask Button/Hamilton/ Vettel/Webber to make room for hsi teammate in equal circumstances?

No, I don't. They may switch positions with pit stops and the like, but that's team strategy, not team orders.

jab · 25 Jul 2010, 14:34 (Ref:2732353)

I think people need to get over it. These things happen. Ferrari haven't done anything against the rules. The drivers haven't done anything wrong. It was the logical decision - Alonso is well ahead in the championship, so in this situation, it is common sense to allow him to win. That is F1. It is a team sport

This has happened so many times before. I can't remember so much whinging when Massa himself was allowed through by Raikkonen in 2008 in China to allow him to stay in the championship battle

Super Hans · 25 Jul 2010, 14:35 (Ref:2732354)

Why couldn't they just have made an error during Felipe's pit-stop?

**Adam43** · 25 Jul 2010, 14:35 (Ref:2732355)

"It is the only chance they had of getting a Ferrari driver the championship".
We don't want that do we. That would be too exciting.

The press are giving them a hard time. Which is all funny.

gert · 25 Jul 2010, 14:35 (Ref:2732356)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bononi

Quote:

Originally Posted by gert

As for the poll, I voted "no".

They may have used team orders (probably so), and have manipulated the result.
However I don't think they cheated.

Can you elaborate on that ??

Sure.

I agree that they *probably* did something that's against the rules.

However, I don't think that everything that's against the rules, must be labeled as "cheating".

It all depends on your definition of cheating...

If you pass a car by cutting a chicane, or when you pass the safety car, then you break the rules. Is that cheating? If you call that cheating, then what Ferrari did, is cheating as well.

I'd think cheating is a bit too strong in all these case.
(then again, English is not my mother tongue)

ralf fan · 25 Jul 2010, 14:36 (Ref:2732357)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Why couldn't they just have made an error during Felipe's pit-stop?

Well it would have cost them 2nd then.

**Adam43** · 25 Jul 2010, 14:38 (Ref:2732359)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Why couldn't they just have made an error during Felipe's pit-stop?

Or why didn't Massa 'lock up and run wide'?
That wouldn't be fair on Massa. It would look like he was beaten.

It was against the rules. I hope they are not punished and it goes further and they get rid of the rule.

It is a purely stupid rule introduced as a knee-jerk reaction. Lets get Nick Clegg on this - get rid of this rule.

dyewat808 · 25 Jul 2010, 14:39 (Ref:2732360)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

Personally I think team orders spoil the race and I don't like them. But at the same time, I accept that as long as there are championships involved, teams are going to play the odds that will give them the best result for both the team and the driver most likely to gain them a champion.

However, the facts of the matter remain the same. Team orders, at this point in time, are against the rules. Breaches of the rules need to be penalised.

Pretty much sums up my view on the whole matter too.

gert · 25 Jul 2010, 14:39 (Ref:2732361)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bononi

Again, can you elaborate on "logic", tell me about logic, I want to know what is that logic. Tell me about logic !

From Ferrari's point-of-view, it was the logical thing to do: keep the driver who still has a chance to win the championship in the points race.

View Poll Results: Did Ferrari cheat and use team orders?
Yes	198	88.39%
No	26	11.61%
Voters: 224. You may not vote on this poll

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro Ferrari?	kristof14	Formula One	19	17 Jan 2009 11:57
Can non-Ferrari driver drives a Ferrari?	Greenback	Formula One	20	8 Jun 2006 02:55
Would you prefer to view Ferrari domination or a Battling Ferrari?	Valve Bounce	Formula One	36	25 Nov 2002 21:55
Ferrari boss theatens Ferrari may quit	Inigo Montoya	Formula One	58	16 Oct 2002 07:58
Year old Ferrari for Ferrari in first GP	FullMonty	Formula One	49	3 Mar 2002 05:28