[Rules] What punishment should Ferrari and/or its drivers get?

[strider]

Originally Posted by E.B

Should that not be "... incurred the wrath of the Massa's"?

Yeah, I hear the whole family is up in arms about it and organising a petition!

[foreversideways]

I don't like the rule banning team orders and think it should be removed however right at this moment the rule exists and the FIA should throw the book at Ferrari and remove all their points from that race, drivers and constructors. Furthermore the blatant and barefaced lying by all the members of the team should be treated as bringing the sport into disrepute and a further penalty should be applied for this as well. Rob Smedley's smirking as he explained that there had been no team orders was pathetic.

[aridshelter]

Remove their privilege of being able to use driver numbers based on previous WCC position, and make them go all the way to the the back - racing as no's 27 & 28.

That'd show them...

[alc]

Originally Posted by strider

Yeah, I hear the whole family is up in arms about it and organising a petition!

I hadn't realised Massa was a Sicilian - I look forward to seeing the maFIA godfathers dealing with it.

[broadrun96]

If I remember form the article, the team is charged with both violation of rule banning team orders (charge 1) and with bringing the sport into disrepute (charge 2). You can argue until you are blue in the face about whether or not they issued a directly RECORDED and BROADCAST order or talked about having Massa move out of the way on Alonso's channel. I never heard Alsono after he whined earlier in the race, maybe the FIA have a recording of his channel and the team have said Massa will concede his position to you. However, the MUCH bigger charge that the FIA will press is the bringing the sport into disrepute and that does not need ANY physical proof of their violation of team orders. Just having the appearance of team orders was enough to make both fans and commentators cringe at the result of the race and call for the removal of Ferrari from the record of the GP. The disrepute charge will most likely result in the biggest fine and possible stripping of any points earned at the GP. Unfortunately as they have shown in the past, charges against a team may result in the drivers still profiting and earning points, McLaren and the spygate saga, so the taking of Alonso's points may not occur. I think Massa was stuck and could not have maintained his position and maintained his drive. Had he stayed in front and won, he may have been allowed to drive this weekend but would not have been surprised to see him running close to rear of the field and Ferrari attempted to steal his seat after the break.

[Adam43]

They should get no punishment.

They broke the rule, I didn't like what they did, but the rule is stupid and I think they should be allowed to do what they want. So I think they shouldn't get any punishment.

[Teretonga]

I would still go back to my original suggestion of the fine remaining and a ten second time penalty for Fernando.
The fine is right but something else needs to happen and a huge fine simply means you way up the cost to the benefit gained.
The actual benefit needs to be over turned, not because I hate Fernando or Ferrari (I dont) but because the FIA needs to uphold its rules.

Adding ten seconds to his time would relegate him to third.....
That would act asa significant deterrent to any team manager considering the same thing again (instructions to a driver to yield his first place position).

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by strider

It's interesting to hear what Mark Webber thinks about it

Unlike his team principal, Mark Webber hasn't cynically exploited the situation to get one up on a rival.

Once again he goes up in my estimation.

[pannenmann]

Carlos Gracia said that no further punishments will be dished out.

[Bononi]

Carlos Gracia is spanish right ?


Right.

[pannenmann]

As he's a high ranked member of the FIA I expect him to be objective and totally impartial He also wants to abolish that team order rule. It's quite obvious that he wants to rescue Schumi...

[wnut]

In the Button v Hamilton thread we have the following posts and discussion, yet nobody accuses McLaren of cheating or race fixing.
Maybe the members who posted on that thread should go back and read the thread
from round about page 12 post #167 ish.

Originally posted by BornRacer
"I was watching the race summary videos on the official F1 website and noticed that Lewis asked the team (his race engineer?) if should he slow down would Jenson pass him. He was told "no"."

Here is the clip in question: http://www.formula1.com/video/?inptC...tT=Race%20Edit




An excerpt fromFox89s post
"There was no ambiguity was there? "If I back off will Jenson pass me or not?" "No Lewis, No." *JensonPasses*

Then Lewis repasses and Jenson clearly receives orders to back off.

No race fixing here!

Give Ferrari their money back, accept the reality of motor racing, get rid of the stupid rule that everyone breaks anyway and lets all move on!

[Bononi]

Expectations can be dissapointing...

[strider]

Originally Posted by Adam43

They should get no punishment.

They broke the rule, I didn't like what they did, but the rule is stupid and I think they should be allowed to do what they want. So I think they shouldn't get any punishment.

Absolutely agree.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Adam43

They should get no punishment.

They broke the rule, I didn't like what they did, but the rule is stupid and I think they should be allowed to do what they want. So I think they shouldn't get any punishment.

There is a certain appeal about the idea of ignoring rules that one perceives to be stupid. The concept, if broadly applied, might even lead to overtaking - proper overtaking not the team orders version - becoming fashionable again.

[Marbot]

Probably the most nonsensical rule.

There is but one rule in this particular section.

"20) DRIVING"

"20.1 The driver must drive the car alone and unaided."

This is most certainly not the case at the moment.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Probably the most nonsensical rule.

There is but one rule in this particular section.

"20) DRIVING"

"20.1 The driver must drive the car alone and unaided."

This is most certainly not the case at the moment.

Does that mean power steering is illegal?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Back of the grid, next race, no qualifying.

[Kempi]

Not appealing has nothing to do with admiting guilt. It has to do with evaluating the risks and benefits of an appeal in all ways thinkable (including fees for attorneys and so on) and estimating whether a party can live with the decision in question or not. Ferrari obviously decided that the fine is nothing to be too worried about and that the risks of an appeal were greater than accepting the outcome of the original decision. They DID NOT admit any guilt.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by dsg

Does that mean power steering is illegal?

I don't know, does it?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Kempi

They DID NOT admit any guilt.

Most criminals have the right to silence if they think that it's in their best interests to keep their mouths shut.

Unfortunately for Ferrari, the meeting with the WMSC won't be to discuss whether or not they are guilty.

[Born Racer]

"They gave Felipe a good opportunity to win the grand prix as well," said Webber. "They gave him the chance to win the race up to the point where he couldn't pull away from Fernando. Obviously they had a decision in the team where the fastest guy in the team wins the race. The fastest guy on that day won the race.

What a ridiculous comment from Webber. I'd laugh if he was ahead of Vettel and they told him likewise. He'd probably turn into a total hypocrite. The fastest guy won the race? No. Massa and Alonso were trading fastest laps most the race prior to that and Massa had track position.

[Born Racer]

Re: the punishment, is there any precedent for 5-second penalties? I know lots of drivers got one in Valencia. I'd prefer 25-second penalties, with a warning that if caught again (and they have been caught, hence the fine), they will be thrown out of the race.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by wnut

In the Button v Hamilton thread we have the following posts and discussion, yet nobody accuses McLaren of cheating or race fixing.
Maybe the members who posted on that thread should go back and read the thread
from round about page 12 post #167 ish.

Originally posted by BornRacer
"I was watching the race summary videos on the official F1 website and noticed that Lewis asked the team (his race engineer?) if should he slow down would Jenson pass him. He was told "no"."

Here is the clip in question: http://www.formula1.com/video/?inptC...tT=Race%20Edit




An excerpt fromFox89s post
"There was no ambiguity was there? "If I back off will Jenson pass me or not?" "No Lewis, No." *JensonPasses*

Then Lewis repasses and Jenson clearly receives orders to back off.

No race fixing here!

Give Ferrari their money back, accept the reality of motor racing, get rid of the stupid rule that everyone breaks anyway and lets all move on!

There are some comments on that incident here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/8869022.stm
What do you think?

[JamesH]

All this talk of the rule being silly is irrelevant. Its a rule. They appeared, beyond reasonable doubt, to have broken the rule. They should be punished. You cannot pick and chose which rules you obey or don't, just because you don't like them. I don't like the rule which states you have to use a 4 stroke IC engine, so I'm going to turn up in a turbine engined F1 car....what, you mean I can't do that? But I don't like the rule....so why can't I....etc etc

They have, beyond any doubt, also broken the rule on bringing the sport into disrepute. For that, also, they should be punished. And, of course, it is their own fault for making the initial rule break so damn obvious in the first place. So many ways to implement the required result, and they do it in the most blatantly stupid way possible. Arrogance in the extreme. Sticking two fingers up to a rule is going to, and should, result in punishment.