Pitstop Shenanigans

[JimW]

Originally Posted by St00ge

What are you going to do about it?? Make everyone where a orange vest and have the wheel men sign a release form stating the wheel is done up to the correct torque and then verified by a manager before the car can go out again, it is a bloody pit lane during a race sh!t can and will always happen

The solution is simple and obvious to even the meanest *********.

Just remove pit stops from any part in F1. It's been done for re-fuelling, now specify tyres which go the distance.



Regards

Jim

[skells22]

er, want happen if the rain comes during a race with out pit stops

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by JimW

The solution is simple and obvious to even the meanest *********.

Just remove pit stops from any part in F1. It's been done for re-fuelling, now specify tyres which go the distance.



Regards

Jim

Over to you, Pirelli!

[JimW]

Originally Posted by skells22

er, what happen if the rain comes during a race with out pit stops

Sorry for the short answer; I was going for the concept, not the detail.

Of course allow changes to/from a "wet"tyre. Allow changes to (back to) a "dry" tyre also. But they would be the same dry tyre.

Use five studs and only allow a spider to be used to change them if you want. ()

Whatever you do in the detail, kill off the concept of the pit stop playing a part in the strategy of winning a race.

Regards

Jim

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by skells22

er, want happen if the rain comes during a race with out pit stops

All sorts of fun.

[Marbot]

When it rains there tends to be a period where some drivers stay out and others come in to change tyres, same applies when it stops raining. Safety cars are usually a 'no-brainer' for most drivers to come in and change tyres altogether on the same lap.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Razor

I think some teams were using a mix of CO2 and nitrogen in the tyres in 2008 when traction control was banned.

The use of CO2 was amongst the details accidentally revealed by the FIA during the spygate affair but of course CO2 is heavier than both air and Nitrogen so DC is still wrong, an inflated tyre is heavier not lighter and the harder you pump it up the heavier it gets!

Of course the whole thing is academic anyway as the difference is a fraction of 1% of the weight of the tyre so I'll stop posting about it now.

[VIVA GT]

I'll too add my weight to the arguement that the pitlane should be closed during safety car periods, with the added rider that anyone forced to pit during this time (force majeure? to repair damage) can do do but must incurr an additional time penalty.
The old 'excuse' for allowing cars into the pitlane during this time was that they may need to re-fuel, well this is no longer a necessity...

[Dutton]

I wonder if DC thinks birds flying inside a lorry's trailer will make it lighter for the scales?

[6157]

Isn't it about time F1 pit lanes expand to have a stall for each car?

Stacking cars for pit stops in the world's top racing series seems a bit beyond ridiculous.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Dutton

I wonder if DC thinks birds flying inside a lorry's trailer will make it lighter for the scales?

I used to drive trucks that were refrigerated by using Liquid Nitrogen (not a good idea to walk into the trailers until after you'd waited a few seconds for outside air to get in!). Suffice to say that a trailer full of Nitrogen gas wasn't any lighter than one that was empty of Nitrogen gas.

The main thing with Nitrogen is that it's an inert gas and is more likely to keep a steady pressure inside a tyre in comparison to just normal air. But 'you' already knew that didn't you.

[alc]

Originally Posted by 6157

Isn't it about time F1 pit lanes expand to have a stall for each car?

Stacking cars for pit stops in the world's top racing series seems a bit beyond ridiculous.

If we had only one car per constructor with a two driver team, we would solve both the stacking problem and the team orders problem at one stroke .

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I'll too add my weight to the arguement that the pitlane should be closed during safety car periods, with the added rider that anyone forced to pit during this time (force majeure? to repair damage) can do do but must incurr an additional time penalty.
The old 'excuse' for allowing cars into the pitlane during this time was that they may need to re-fuel, well this is no longer a necessity...

I have my doubts whether this is a solution. The neutralisation is usually an outspoken opportunity to change tyres. As soon as the pit lane gets open after a neutralisation, it may well be that most of the drivers will do their mandatory tyre change right after the neutralisation.

[duke_toaster]

WRT to tyre gases

Originally Posted by 2010 F1 technical regulations

12.7 Tyre Gases :
12.7.1 Tyres may only be inflated with air or nitrogen.
12.7.2 Any process the intent of which is to reduce the amount of moisture in the tyre and/or in it’s inflation gas is forbidden.

Grammatical error in bold.

So it's nitrogen in those tyres. I don't think DC was getting at the gas having some kind of negative mass, but referring to the fact that nitrogen and rubber is lighter than more wheel (what you get with sportscar style low profile boots).

I'm unsure about closing the pitlane during SC deployments, but it would certainly make sense to do the NASCAR thing of not opening the pit lane until the cars are formed up (unless of course a car has clearly punctured tyres).

[bravo]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

I'm unsure about closing the pitlane during SC deployments, but it would certainly make sense to do the NASCAR thing of not opening the pit lane until the cars are formed up (unless of course a car has clearly punctured tyres).

That still doesn't solve the issue of cars coming into the pits interfering with cars leaving. The only way to solve that would be separate entry and exit roads - with the cars driving into the garage (would need to be on an angle) and exiting through the back.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

WRT to tyre gases



Grammatical error in bold.

So it's nitrogen in those tyres. I don't think DC was getting at the gas having some kind of negative mass, but referring to the fact that nitrogen and rubber is lighter than more wheel (what you get with sportscar style low profile boots).

I'm unsure about closing the pitlane during SC deployments, but it would certainly make sense to do the NASCAR thing of not opening the pit lane until the cars are formed up (unless of course a car has clearly punctured tyres).

I thought I was the only one tormented by the it's of this world!
Whoever wrote rule 12.7.3 ensured 100% illegality of the whole grid, the gas suppliers spend considerable effort to get all the water vapour out of the Nitrogen. The exclusion of water vapour is most of the point of using Nitrogen in the first place.
Nice little earner for the FIA, or maybe just a championship random penalty adjuster.

P.S. The rim bit I think is actually lighter than the same amount of tyre in an F1 rim.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by 6157

Isn't it about time F1 pit lanes expand to have a stall for each car?

Stacking cars for pit stops in the world's top racing series seems a bit beyond ridiculous.

Then bernie will require a $10 million redevelopment of the pit areas of all the GP circuits to accommodate the new racing formats....

Its a strategy call. What would have happened if each team in Hungary had left a driver out on the circuit to do what Webber did....

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by wnut

I thought I was the only one tormented by the it's of this world!
Whoever wrote rule 12.7.3 ensured 100% illegality of the whole grid, the gas suppliers spend considerable effort to get all the water vapour out of the Nitrogen. The exclusion of water vapour is most of the point of using Nitrogen in the first place.
Nice little earner for the FIA, or maybe just a championship random penalty adjuster.

I think the rule is written in a way so it's to only be enforced if someone resorts to blatant monkey business.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

WRT to tyre gases
I don't think DC was getting at the gas having some kind of negative mass,

I hope he was, he'll have solved half the world's energy problems if he did!

for the pedants, a gas can be lighter than air - like helium - but it can't have "negative mass".

The principal reason for using Nitrogen is because it's inert - therefore it doesn't chemically degrade the structure of the tyre.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Greem

I hope he was, he'll have solved half the world's energy problems if he did!

for the pedants, a gas can be lighter than air - like helium - but it can't have "negative mass".

The principal reason for using Nitrogen is because it's inert - therefore it doesn't chemically degrade the structure of the tyre.

You could be right but I suspect the main reason is that water vapour in the tyre plays havoc with tyre pressures and the rules effectively forbid using dry air while allowing the use of dry Nitrogen, simply because that's all you can get. If the teams were allowed to dry the air they'd probably drop the Nitrogen and use compressed air, saving money.

After all the tyres are exposed to air for weeks or months in storage, do they really suddenly react with the air when they are put on the rim, even given the higher pressure and temperature.

[1200Datto27]

I would have thought that it was more to prevent teams from using the vacuum evacuation systems that used to be used.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Greem

The principal reason for using Nitrogen is because it's inert - therefore it doesn't chemically degrade the structure of the tyre.

I'm not sure that's strictly correct. Two reasons that I can see - less water vapour, and less expansion as the tyre warms up. (I think it has a lower coefficient of thermal expansion). Both reasons are to reduce tyre pressure changes as the temperature changes.

The tyres are inflated for such a short amount of time the I would have thought any chemical degradation would be irrelevant.

[BootsOntheSide]

Banning pitstops durig the safety car would only have a partial effect. Most cars would probably pit as soon as the pitlane is opened, whether this be once the line is formed or once the race goes green. It might be feasible for new tracks to have enough space to service both cars at once, but that would mean teams either using half their crew on each car, or bringing twice as many mechanics in an era of cost-cutting. Existing tracks would require the pitlane buildings to be extended and the extension of the pitlane (and perhaps changes to the first and last corners of the lap) which seems impractical for such a small benefit.

The biggest solution (and I know I've made this point before) is to cut the level of safety car use - it should only be as common as red flags were before its introduction, as there's no way marhsals can't do at least as much under waved yellows as they could 20 years ago, considering improvements in technology and training in that time. A fair few accidetns can be attributed to the safety car itself.

[m1fcf]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

The biggest solution (and I know I've made this point before) is to cut the level of safety car use - it should only be as common as red flags were before its introduction, as there's no way marhsals can't do at least as much under waved yellows as they could 20 years ago, considering improvements in technology and training in that time. A fair few accidetns can be attributed to the safety car itself.

A long discussed problem that one. If the drivers were to obey the yellow flags more, and to drop their speed more when observing them (not just 1 or 2 tenths over a 3 minute lap) then yes, more yellow, less safety car. But because the drivers dont drop their speed more, then more flags are used, which they then just ignore, meaning a safety car is required.

Other options are a 'reduced speed flag' - see Zandvoort for details, where it is used quite successfully - in combination with the yellows for an incident. Greater difference defined on the lap times under a full-course caution [FCC] (maybe as much as a 50% increase on your last green lap time under a FCC, rather than just a few 10ths) might also work here.

[ASCII Man]

Or just use a speed limiter activated by GPS for the yellow flag sections of the track.