When should Michael Schumacher retire?

[beau1]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Rubens took the appropriate line and it only became potentially dangerous when TGF strated to close the gap and squeeze Rubens as he came along side. Up until then there was nothing potentially dangerous.

Michael was moving toward the right when Rubens was still in his slip-stream.

[strider]

It's only SuperLeague Formula, not F1, but there was a very serious accident at Brands Hatch today when two cars did make contact at high speed and one driver was seriously injured: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85805

[ralf fan]

Schumacher maybe crap this year but he has not lost any of his ability to be a disgusting race driver. What an idiotic move he pulled today. Gimp.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by ralf fan

Schumacher maybe crap this year but he has not lost any of his ability to be a disgusting race driver. What an idiotic move he pulled today. Gimp.

Ditto

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by beau1

If you really believe that, then quite frankly you shouldn't be watching any form of motorsport. These guys are experts and are inch perfect with how much room they leave for another car.
Its pointless saying 'a repeat error of judgement could have let to...' because it didn't happen!
We might as well not trust any of the F1 drivers with your analysis because they all make the odd mistake but then 99% of the time they do things that are inch perfect. A repeat error of judgement could kill Webber next time he runs into the back-marker, its an utterly illogical way to think about it.

You're a fan of IndyCars right?
After someone makes a mistake and nearly a crash do you then constantly worry about them not being inch perfect or think of what could have happened? I highly doubt it because when it comes down to it, the guys are experts and you trust their judgement.

No, I'm not a fan of IndyCars - and I gave up "Go-Karting" when I realised that there was a form of motorsport called "Karting".

And "these guys", though they aim to be, are not inch perfect, though it maybe a nice delusion to live under. If they were, there would be no accidents ever (other than deliberate ones, which AREN'T accidents), none would ever run wide over the kirbs and none would ever clip anothers front wing and every sector time would be the same, lap to lap.

It doesn't happen - it's not reality....

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by beau1

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/8875328.stm

Pause at 10 seconds. That is pretty much the point just before Barrichello moves over to the right as you can see his car is still in the slip-stream of Schumacher. Schumacher is already verging over to defend the line on the right and making more space on the left hand side. Also not that the end of the pitlane wall angles slightly inwards towards the track just before it ends so that space with both of them moving right was always going to vanish.
Rubens was always going for a gap that was going to dissapear and luckily for him Schumacher gave him just enough room to go down it.

Pause at 25 seconds and make the same argument if you will.....

[beau1]

Originally Posted by phoenix

No, I'm not a fan of IndyCars - and I gave up "Go-Karting" when I realised that there was a form of motorsport called "Karting".

And "these guys", though they aim to be, are not inch perfect, though it maybe a nice delusion to live under. If they were, there would be no accidents ever (other than deliberate ones, which AREN'T accidents), none would ever run wide over the kirbs and none would ever clip anothers front wing and every sector time would be the same, lap to lap.

It doesn't happen - it's not reality....

Well thank you for completely missing the context and point of what I was saying.
I think you'll find that I did say that they do make mistakes. I do however trust their judgement.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by beau1

Well thank you for completely missing the context and point of what I was saying.
I think you'll find that I did say that they do make mistakes. I do however trust their judgement.

Sorry - quoting you:

These guys are experts and are inch perfect with how much room they leave for another car.

and:

they all make the odd mistake but then 99% of the time they do things that are inch perfect.

How was I missing the context?

[beau1]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Pause at 25 seconds and make the same argument if you will.....

And what about at 27 seconds when Schumacher was already moving to the right and the gap on the left was now huge? So in those two seconds (or more like 1.5) you seriously think that Schumacher registered he's coming down the inside, and purposely pushed him towards the wall? I really do not think that is realistic, sorry.
Now i'm not going to get in the exact pausing of second but you can plainly see from there that the 'gap' was going to close.
I can't blame Rubens for that as it is a split second decision however I think you can't blame Schumacher for it either. Both were going towards the right at the same time and Rubens ended up going into a gap that was always going to close up.
Thats why I see it more as of an incident of equal blame.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by beau1

Michael was moving toward the right when Rubens was still in his slip-stream.

It's negligible but he certainly moves across as Rubens starts to come along side and contiues to do so forcing Rubens over the white line; that sort of thing is indefensible.

[beau1]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Sorry - quoting you:



and:



How was I missing the context?

Because when it comes down to it, with this incident and 99% of other pieces of defending, they are, in fact inch perfect. Fair enough analyze the hyperbole that is 'perfect' if you wish to but it doesn't change the fact that there wasn't a crash, neither driver had to take avoiding action nor have the stewards taken it upon themselves to call Schumacher the god of hell-fire and ban him from Motorsport for 666 years.

[beau1]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It's negligible but he certainly moves across as Rubens starts to come along side and contiues to do so forcing Rubens over the white line; that sort of thing is indefensible.

Fair enough. In that case next time a driver is forced on to the grass (or within a foot of a wall at Monaco) whether purposely or not then i'll be claiming that they need their licence taken away from them or a 3-race ban.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by beau1

And what about at 27 seconds when Schumacher was already moving to the right and the gap on the left was now huge? So in those two seconds (or more like 1.5) you seriously think that Schumacher registered he's coming down the inside, and purposely pushed him towards the wall? I really do not think that is realistic, sorry.
Now i'm not going to get in the exact pausing of second but you can plainly see from there that the 'gap' was going to close.
I can't blame Rubens for that as it is a split second decision however I think you can't blame Schumacher for it either. Both were going towards the right at the same time and Rubens ended up going into a gap that was always going to close up.
Thats why I see it more as of an incident of equal blame.

I hope Schui's reaction time is better than 1.5-2 seconds, even at his age: he would travel 120-160 metres in that time at 180 mph.... He would also loose several places at every Grand Prix start....

Luckily the Stewards observed Schumacher looking in his mirror and turning in the direction that Rubens chose and that's why he has been penalised. That's all that matters. Had Schui left 1.8 metres (I'm sure he can judge that) between himself and the white line for Rubens then we wouldn't be discussing this....

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by beau1

neither driver had to take avoiding action

Now I know you are having a laugh!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by beau1

Fair enough. In that case next time a driver is forced on to the grass (or within a foot of a wall at Monaco) whether purposely or not then i'll be claiming that they need their licence taken away from them or a 3-race ban.

They should have thrown the book at Schumacher.

[peterelise]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Oh, a gap just like this one then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxVb0...eature=related

or this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIJLRbU-lDI

or this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRv0AfpIANo

Looking at the footage of yesterday's incident, imagine the carnage if some poor bugger was exiting pit lane.

Interesting reading the views on this with people who's view I ordinarily agree with lining up on the other side of this debate to where I sit. For me, the art of racing when you are in Michael's position in a slower car on older tyres is about being mistake free (like Alonso was on Vettel yesterday). Shumacher made the mistake in the last turn onto the main straight (listen and look at the rearward looking camera from his on-board). I don't think it is acceptable to defend by intimidation; sure, take the inside line and make it tough for the other guy to have to outbrake and drive around the outside, but what he did was in my view outright dangerous and totally unacceptable.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by peterelise

Looking at the footage of yesterday's incident, imagine the carnage if some poor bugger was exiting pit lane.

Very good point - and I wonder where the Marshal's posts are? They could have been in danger from any wreckage

[strider]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Very good point - and I wonder where the Marshal's posts are? They could have been in danger from any wreckage

In the TV commentary they said that's also the area where the Safety and Medical Cars are parked on stand-by.

[ghinzani]

Originally Posted by beau1

Not really worth talking about but the 94' incident is a laughable thing to bring up especially when Damon was equally to blame. That door was always going to be shut in his face.
Get off your bias horse...not a Senna fan are you?

*splutter*
"Damon was equally to blame."...
*shakes head in disbelief*

I have genuinely never heard anything so daft on this forum.

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by greenracer

Senna was another driver who thought he had the GOD given right to drive the way he did

I agree, and to be completely honest, I believe Senna's driving lowered the standard of driving forever. It wasn't just F1 that Senna practised his habit, countless times in F3 he collided with Brundle.

Another time, that Schumi made this move, was Spa 2000, the lap before Hakkinen passed him and Zonta. Schumi moved across and if memory serves me right, Hakkinens front wing touched his rear wheel. Playing chicken at those speeds is not acceptable, accident or no accident.

[E.B]

Im looking forward to the day when Mercedes realise (well they must already realise) and act on the fact that they need a #2 driver who can more adequately exploit the admittedly not top rung car in a manner nearer to Nico's pace, rather than accept the efforts of a driver doing his rather ineffective and pace lacking best.

As for Michael's function maybe being more to act as a PR figurehead, I am sure the Mercedes PR dept would rather the press were writing more positive material than has been published of late regarding his rather insignificant contribution to the team.

That is not to decry his pre retirement record of achievment.... the current Schumacher seems to have only the attitude and arrogance of the past one, without much of the ability.

[beau1]

Originally Posted by ghinzani

*splutter*
"Damon was equally to blame."...
*shakes head in disbelief*

I have genuinely never heard anything so daft on this forum.

Daft or not, Damon could have easily waited until the next straight rather than attempting what was a rather opportunistic move. I can see why he went for it though.

[Chatters]

Full points to Barrichello for having the largest pair of grapefruits on track yesterday...

[Félix]

I'm so glad MS came back to prove how much of a "champion" he is: ethically pathetic and completely lost in a pack of similarly talented drivers when his car is not the best on the grid with a whole team dedicated to him.

One more year should make it even more undeniable!

[ghinzani]

Originally Posted by beau1

Daft or not, Damon could have easily waited until the next straight rather than attempting what was a rather opportunistic move. I can see why he went for it though.

Thats better, but to be fair to Damon he didnt know that TGC's car was mortally wounded therefore Im not sure he can take any of the blame. Its like blaming the Polish for being invaded in 1939 because they were in the way.