The most artificial thing in F1 is safety cars

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Scooter185

Why does F1 need to have road relevance? That should be what sports car racing is for, and LMP1 is quickly becoming the test bed for road relevant tech.

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I don't believe that F1 is, or will be in the future road relevant at all, or needs to be for that matter ...

Agree generally with both of you - Beryl referred to KERS as being "road relevant" & I simply elaborated on that.

In general terms, F1 is not about road relevance, it's about the top of the tree for outright performance, competition etc. Having said that, there ARE some areas that have proved to (eventually) be road relevant. For example the programmable engine management systems and semi auto gearbox systems that were cutting edge when introduced to F1 are now pretty much standard or common in road cars.

[Marbot]

F1's task would appear to be to find the best way of getting the most out of energy recovery, energy storage and energy use. And also to get the best out of a small capacity turbocharged petrol engine.

These are the sort of vehicles that you can already buy from most European car dealerships. The hope is that the majority of cars will be solely battery powered during the next decade.

No doubt about it - the future of road cars is electric.

[chunder]

Cant believe anyone hasn't mentioned Pinkham!

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

F1's task would appear to be to find the best way of getting the most out of energy recovery, energy storage and energy use. And also to get the best out of a small capacity turbocharged petrol engine.

These are the sort of vehicles that you can already buy from most European car dealerships. The hope is that the majority of cars will be solely battery powered during the next decade.

No doubt about it - the future of road cars is electric.

I really like your post...I read it several times before typing this reply...

The Turbo charging plus energy recovery is the way forward because we know that they can wind up that engine to produce whatever horsepower they want, and why not recover as much energy as possible on the electrical front, that is what the turbo is doing...

The second part of your post I agree with IF they can make the whole car one giant solar panel and at the same time make it look like a C Class Mercedes...

[Scooter185]

Originally Posted by Marbot

F1's task would appear to be to find the best way of getting the most out of energy recovery, energy storage and energy use. And also to get the best out of a small capacity turbocharged petrol engine.

These are the sort of vehicles that you can already buy from most European car dealerships. The hope is that the majority of cars will be solely battery powered during the next decade.

No doubt about it - the future of road cars is electric.

I disagree that it will be fully electric. I think we'll see selectable hybrid, i.e. gas/diesel rwd, hybrid all wheel, electric fwd. I think we'll see "zero emission" areas pop up in cities and such, but fossil fuel will remain for long distance.

Until hydrogen gets the kinks worked out.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by beau1

I think the principle of the safety car is fine, the problem I have with it is that is that it has now become part of the show.

The safety car served its function much better when lapped cars stayed where the were. It annoys me now how lapped cars are released as it is surely more dangerous having cars going at various speeds and it also means the safety car remains on track for longer.

I agree with the principle of it, how else can the field be controlled, so that the track marshals can clear debris or remove a car in safety. The business of unlapping, with cars going at various speeds, surely defeats the purpose of this?

[Greem]

The lapped vehicles aren't released until it is deemed safe to do so (as I explained in the other thread).

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Greem

The lapped vehicles aren't released until it is deemed safe to do so (as I explained in the other thread).

Fairenough.

[Nicholosophy]

Originally Posted by Greem

The lapped vehicles aren't released until it is deemed safe to do so (as I explained in the other thread).

What I don't get is that when they let the field unlap they have to stick to the specified SC deltas. Since it is safe to release them to unlap, they should be allowed to go at pace to rejoin the back of the field.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by NickoGP

What I don't get is that when they let the field unlap they have to stick to the specified SC deltas. Since it is safe to release them to unlap, they should be allowed to go at pace to rejoin the back of the field.

I believe this is known as "the law of unintended consequences".

[wnut]

Originally Posted by NickoGP

What I don't get is that when they let the field unlap they have to stick to the specified SC deltas. Since it is safe to release them to unlap, they should be allowed to go at pace to rejoin the back of the field.

What I really don't get is why the lapped cars are allowed to unlap themselves in the first place.

Pick up the leader and maintain the order of the train.

[Scooter185]

Originally Posted by wnut

What I really don't get is why the lapped cars are allowed to unlap themselves in the first place.

Pick up the leader and maintain the order of the train.

In order to get the lapped traffic out of the way for drivers battling for position on the restart. For example instead of having p1, lapped car, lapped car, p2 on the restart, it's p1, p2, p3, etc. it makes it more fair, in this example to the p2 car, and makes for better racing.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Scooter185

In order to get the lapped traffic out of the way for drivers battling for position on the restart. For example instead of having p1, lapped car, lapped car, p2 on the restart, it's p1, p2, p3, etc. it makes it more fair, in this example to the p2 car, and makes for better racing.

I'm sorry but I don't understand this argument, at least as far as it relates to fairness, before the safety car p2 had twenty seconds (say) and two cars between him and the leader. Safety car comes out and now p2 is a couple of seconds behind the leader still with two lapped cars to pass, he's just gained a massive (unfair? certainly unearned) advantage. Then the lapped cars are allowed to overtake and he's only half a second behind the leader and can have a direct crack at him, another huge advantage gained. There are lots of arguments to have the safety car but the only one that relates to fairness is "what goes around comes around".

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

There are lots of arguments to have the safety car but the only one that relates to fairness is "what goes around comes around".

Indeed, and although I don't know the statistics of it, it stands to reason that some people will lose out more over their careers than others because of it. We could consider another integral randomising element of a race to be the weather. This, however, is one of the least 'artificial' things there is (complaining about the weather is a futile, bonding tactic among people). There are various random disadvantages (I'll say disadvantages because they relate to the competition; obviously some people are disadvantaged and some advantaged by the random playing out of these events) inflicted by safety cars.

One is letting leading cars lap others. As you state, this hugely reduces margins between cars which are not lost overtaking in the race.

Another is the sheer spread of the field, which is completely nullified by the safety car.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Indeed, and although I don't know the statistics of it, it stands to reason that some people will lose out more over their careers than others because of it. We could consider another integral randomising element of a race to be the weather. This, however, is one of the least 'artificial' things there is (complaining about the weather is a futile, bonding tactic among people). There are various random disadvantages (I'll say disadvantages because they relate to the competition; obviously some people are disadvantaged and some advantaged by the random playing out of these events) inflicted by safety cars.

One is letting leading cars lap others. As you state, this hugely reduces margins between cars which are not lost overtaking in the race.

Another is the sheer spread of the field, which is completely nullified by the safety car.

I believe the cars are already fitted with GPS, so their position on the track can be established. Why not then fit a proximity detector to each car, that can be synchronised with GPS, so when the SC comes out the spread of the field can be maintained?

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I believe the cars are already fitted with GPS, so their position on the track can be established. Why not then fit a proximity detector to each car, that can be synchronised with GPS, so when the SC comes out the spread of the field can be maintained?

I don't think you want to maintain the gap when the safety car comes out as it is the cars bunching into a train which makes it safe for the marshalls to work. How about re-establishing the gaps when the race restarts? Every car is already fitted with GPS transmitting to race control, add a "safety car" light operated from race control and all you have to do is tell the drivers they have to stay at safety car speed till their light goes out then you trip the leaders first and watch the gaps on the GPS when number two is at it's pre safety car gap you switch his light off, he can now drive away from third place until the gap to third is right when you trip number three's light and so on down the field. Given the will it could probably be made to work but I can't imagine anyone (except Seb) being very keen in practise as the safety car restarts are now part of the show and it would make them extremely dull!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

I don't think you want to maintain the gap when the safety car comes out as it is the cars bunching into a train which makes it safe for the marshalls to work. How about re-establishing the gaps when the race restarts? Every car is already fitted with GPS transmitting to race control, add a "safety car" light operated from race control and all you have to do is tell the drivers they have to stay at safety car speed till their light goes out then you trip the leaders first and watch the gaps on the GPS when number two is at it's pre safety car gap you switch his light off, he can now drive away from third place until the gap to third is right when you trip number three's light and so on down the field. Given the will it could probably be made to work but I can't imagine anyone (except Seb) being very keen in practise as the safety car restarts are now part of the show and it would make them extremely dull!

Yes, there's the track marshall safety to consider, hence the bunching. It would make the re-start dull but they should give it go and see what the outcome is. They tried a standing start at the Honda Toronto Indy for the first time in IndyCar racing history. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

[Teretonga]

Keep it really simple....

Full course yellow, safety car picks up leader and they line up behind line astern, no change in order. if they pit they come back out and fit in order they arrived back on track in.......Incident over safety car comes in again and they race....

End of story. that's just the way it is.
Basic mantra: Don't over do the safety car.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Keep it really simple....

Full course yellow, safety car picks up leader and they line up behind line astern, no change in order. if they pit they come back out and fit in order they arrived back on track in.......Incident over safety car comes in again and they race....

End of story. that's just the way it is.
Basic mantra: Don't over do the safety car.

Perfect!

[Marbot]

The real back markers are in the wrong place if you don't let them unlap themselves, which is not ideal, and the drivers in faster cars constantly moan that they get in the way. But I think that it's about safety more than anything, which takes precedence over anything.

In an ideal world there would be no such thing as having to let back markers unlap themselves. We can only dream.

New rule: If you're about to be lapped you are able to ignore all the regulations about blue flags and moving around on the track, etc. That ought to liven things up. In fact, just ban blue flags....and one move position defence......and tarmac run-off....and....I'll stop now.

[Scooter185]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

I'm sorry but I don't understand this argument, at least as far as it relates to fairness, before the safety car p2 had twenty seconds (say) and two cars between him and the leader. Safety car comes out and now p2 is a couple of seconds behind the leader still with two lapped cars to pass, he's just gained a massive (unfair? certainly unearned) advantage. Then the lapped cars are allowed to overtake and he's only half a second behind the leader and can have a direct crack at him, another huge advantage gained. There are lots of arguments to have the safety car but the only one that relates to fairness is "what goes around comes around".

The SC can also cost people laps through no fault other than its timing. The SC is going to neutralize the field and remove the gaps, that's just the nature of the SC, the wave around clears the way for better racing and I'd say overall is more fair to the drivers. It's still not perfect and drivers can still get screwed but IMO is currently the best solution.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Marbot

The real back markers are in the wrong place if you don't let them unlap themselves, which is not ideal, and the drivers in faster cars constantly moan that they get in the way. But I think that it's about safety more than anything, which takes precedence over anything.

In an ideal world there would be no such thing as having to let back markers unlap themselves. We can only dream.

New rule: If you're about to be lapped you are able to ignore all the regulations about blue flags and moving around on the track, etc. That ought to liven things up. In fact, just ban blue flags....and one move position defence......and tarmac run-off....and....I'll stop now.

I understand the argument but its rubbish. If they were about to lap them then the quick drivers should still need to lap them.
What is effectively happening is the race is over and the order is being unfurled to begin another race in single file according to the finishing order of the previous heat.....

As for the safety argument that is ludicrous. If you get a grid penalty or have poor qualifying you still end up surrounded by 'backmarkers' that you have to race and overtake. How can it be unreasonably more dangerous when the safety car is involved.
Forget the complaints. If they cant race properly then do they belong there?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I understand the argument but its rubbish. If they were about to lap them then the quick drivers should still need to lap them.
What is effectively happening is the race is over and the order is being unfurled to begin another race in single file according to the finishing order of the previous heat.....

As for the safety argument that is ludicrous. If you get a grid penalty or have poor qualifying you still end up surrounded by 'backmarkers' that you have to race and overtake. How can it be unreasonably more dangerous when the safety car is involved.
Forget the complaints. If they cant race properly then do they belong there?

Ditto.

[Paradise City]

I would favour being as faithful one can to the course the race has gone and leave the lapped cars where they are. Leaders have to lap the lapped cars? Cry me a river.

Lapped cars can just as much add to the sporting drama as detract from it.

Awkward stuff like waiting for tired slowcoaches to gain the free gift of a lap back is very irritating.

[codename_47]

Hey, I have a request for anyone who considers themselves a purist:
Stop watching, this isn't the sport for you.

I'm sure there's a nice classic championship running with old F1 cars you can watch where the fastest car in qualifying lines up on pole and second in second etc and you can watch a glorious old-fashioned race unencumbered by any of that nasty overtaking that clutters up the chance to see great cars lapping on their own with no other car within 20 lengths of them.

F1 stopped being about purism a long time ago.
And I sat through more than enough races in the 90s and 2000s where the refuelling meant the only passing on track happened when the car ahead was trundling down the pit lane.
You can criticise the safety car, pirelli, Kers, DRS or the qualifying set up all you want, but all these things combined bring us the thing that all true motorsport fans should desire over anything else: wheel to wheel racing.

I also find this thread ironic as it seems this year Bernie has had a little whisper in Charlie Whiting's ear to tell him to withhold the safety car as much as possible, resulting in the Nurburgring having 2 situations that where unnecessarily dangerous all in the name of keeping the race going.
I feared for the poor marshals, unpaid, out in the blistering heat and expected to recover Massa's car right in the firing line of turn 1 under a yellow flag that most drivers barely acknowledge.
Then again with the Marussia, expected to deal with a car on the inside of the next most dangerous point on the track before the chicane until it started rolling away and sense was finally seen and the SC was called.
Like Martin Brundle I also hate to see those snatch tractors on track under racing conditions.

F1 actually had the SC rules right in 2008 or so, completely closing the pits so the drivers are not tempted to race back to pit lane dangerously through the incident that's brought out the SC in the first place.
If they have a puncture or whatever...tough...that's the way the cookie crumbled. (Less of an issue now with no refueling, natch.)
The currently system is not perfect as you get situations like Vettel passing Hamilton in Aus 2012 in the pits under the SC...well someone obviously was caring more about his racing position than respecting the flag rules on track wasn't he?
Close the pits so this nonsense can't happen.