Combined Car and Driver Weight

[Jon Davis]

Chaps,

Has any FF1600 championship introduced the combined car and driver weight requirement in 2010? Just need to decide how much lead to buy . . . or pies to eat (the latter sounds preferable!)

[FA73]

Jon - Classic FF1600 has - 500KG combined weight, 420KG Car only. I understand the Historics are doing the same thing.

[Jon Davis]

Interesting. The Champion of Brands does not have the combined weight . . . yet. Hm, I need to weigh myself . . . I only seemed to add 70kg to the weight of the car when I tried it (and that we is jeans and jack boots!). . . though im not overly confident in the accuracy of the scales.

Off the weigh myself now!

[Jon Davis]

Yee gadds . . . 69.1kg in my smart clothes with wallet and mobile phone.

bring on the lard.

[FA73]

I voted against the Combined weight rule - but if you are 70kg (I am 85Kg) then I think I might have changed my mind !!!

[Mr.Jingles]

Castle Combe is running to 500kg all up including driver and gear (420 for the car alone). Think BRSCC runs to the same.

[youngoldy]

BRSCC run 420kg for the car and 500kg including driver. I dont know what the sense is in having one rule for a driver and car, and then another for just the car, when laptimes are set with the driver in the car. If all cars aim to be 500kg and driver MINIMUM, then what is the problem? Or, if all cars weigh minimum 420kg without driver, what is the problem? And finally, what problem (or should I say problems) is there with having two rules for one area if regulation?

Our drivers weigh somewhere near(ish) 80kg, and the cars weigh roughly 420kg, as most FF1600 cars do. Why two rules? Is it unfair that some cars can be built lighter than others? Is it unfair that some drivers are heavier than others?

A car could weigh 505kg with driver, and be legit, and then be 417kg without driver, and be an illegal car, and be excluded from the session. Can someone please spot the logic in that for me and many others.

[Mr.Jingles]

Originally Posted by youngoldy

A car could weigh 505kg with driver, and be legit, and then be 417kg without driver, and be an illegal car, and be excluded from the session. Can someone please spot the logic in that for me and many others.

I supposed it's aimed at people like me - over the 80kg driver weight by a non-trivial amount. Stops us getting out the black and decker to drill holes in the chassis rails

But yeah, I agree, makes more sense to have one weight rule (the all up rule) and then allow the drivers to chose where to shed the excess from..... safely.

[GlenF]

I was pleased when Combe brought in the 500kg rule as some of the drivers were 60kg and others 95kg (Quite a difference, like having a bag or 2 of cement lugged around).

[Mr.Jingles]

From the look I got from the guy manning the scales at one of the rounds last year, I think he thought I'd eaten one of the other drivers after looking at the readout

Never gotta worry about being underweight.....

[SAMD]

I think F. Ford International rules are for min car weight of 420. The Local club then have an additional rule that give an overall limit for their series only.

But then again, I might be barking mad

[youngoldy]

But pardon me for speaking out of term (again), but if everyones car weighs 420kg, and then your driver weighs 70kg, and other drivers are heavier, surely that is the other drivers problem? Nothing to do with the car, so why should lighter drivers have to have the disadvantage of carrying lead around in their car just so that it makes a level playing field in terms of combined weight and be ´fairer´ for the other drivers?

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by youngoldy

But pardon me for speaking out of term (again), but if everyones car weighs 420kg, and then your driver weighs 70kg, and other drivers are heavier, surely that is the other drivers problem? Nothing to do with the car, so why should lighter drivers have to have the disadvantage of carrying lead around in their car just so that it makes a level playing field in terms of combined weight and be ´fairer´ for the other drivers?

It depends what you think motorsport should be a test of. A minimum combined weight makes it a purer test of driving ability, a minimum car weight distorts the test of driving ability since lighter drivers with the same or even less talent have an automatic advantage which has nothing to do with their driving skills.

[duke_toaster]

A thought from someone that doesn't have anything to do with any FFord racing here - if that's a concern, what about a minimum weight for a fully suited/helmeted/HANSed (if used) driver? It would keep the minimum weight on the car, not unfairly disadvantage most lighter drivers but would stop it becoming Formula Kate Moss ...

[schuey57]

been reading this topic with interest, being a "heavy" 120kg i'm obviously biased to run combined weight, been racing ff1600 and currently ff2000 and am always curious as to what is the diassadvantage is every 10kg per lap would be on your time, you hear it in f1, but is it worse with the less power u have?. glad the cff1600 have changed and only wish the 2000's would also.

another factor to consider is looking to persuade "heavies" to try s-seaters as most are told to forget them and go and race an old smoker.

so whats the verdict, how much per 10kgs?

[Meanie]

I have heard it said that 15kg saved = 0.5hp gained. To answer your question definitively, you would have to know the hp of the car in question to start with and at which circuit.
Having just spent the winter on saving 5kg on the car and 2kg on me (marathon training), I am demanding to be quicker at Combe or retire!

[schuey57]

different circuits would give different disadvantages, ciruits with mainly 3-4th gear corners would'nt be such a disadvantage, haipins are the killer!.

another thing to consider is yr head in the air flow, (6ft 6).

[SAMD]

Could you not just work out the average power/weight ratio and then alter it by a percentage according to your weight. And then increase/decrease lap times by the same percentage? or is that too simplistic.
Anyway, I think nearly all the older guys could do with loosing a few pounds and it would make them quicker. Not only from how the car reacts to lighter weight, but I/we all perform better at optimum weight.

[FFmygale]

Originally Posted by SAMD

Could you not just work out the average power/weight ratio and then alter it by a percentage according to your weight. And then increase/decrease lap times by the same percentage? or is that too simplistic.
Anyway, I think nearly all the older guys could do with loosing a few pounds and it would make them quicker. Not only from how the car reacts to lighter weight, but I/we all perform better at optimum weight.

Exactly! but the problem seems to be that the older guys seem to want everyone to carry ballast to compensate for the extra pies they have consumed for many years. Its not only weight that is making them slow - its also a lack of commitment!

[kartingdad]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

It depends what you think motorsport should be a test of. A minimum combined weight makes it a purer test of driving ability, a minimum car weight distorts the test of driving ability since lighter drivers with the same or even less talent have an automatic advantage which has nothing to do with their driving skills.

Its always galling to be beaten by a scrawny whippersnapper and blame it the fact he is lighter. Of course it makes a difference. But so does the fact the youngster is probably fitter, has faster reactions, a lot less imagination and often does not have to payto fix the car.

On your premise, athletes in different disciplines such as running, jumping, playing tennis would be weight/hieght equalised. But they are not. They tend to gravitate to sports which suit their physiques. why should motor racing be any different.

Old fat lardy blokes should use their guile and experience to beat the youngsters. Why should the skinnies pay for the oldies pie eating habits by buying ballast?

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by kartingdad

Its always galling to be beaten by a scrawny whippersnapper and blame it the fact he is lighter. Of course it makes a difference. But so does the fact the youngster is probably fitter, has faster reactions, a lot less imagination and often does not have to payto fix the car.

On your premise, athletes in different disciplines such as running, jumping, playing tennis would be weight/hieght equalised. But they are not. They tend to gravitate to sports which suit their physiques. why should motor racing be any different.

Old fat lardy blokes should use their guile and experience to beat the youngsters. Why should the skinnies pay for the oldies pie eating habits by buying ballast?

I am not convinced by your arguments and will answer each in turn.

1. You are right, you can always use the fact that the scrawny whippersnapper is lighter as an excuse, surely if said scrawny whippersnapper is a real racer he'd be delighted to have his Kart ballasted up to the same weight as his opponent and prove he could still beat him by his superior driving/racing skills.

2. Running, jumping and Tennis are all sports where the individual supplies his own energy therefore a large fit person has a corresponding increase in muscle mass and therefore a similar power to weight ratio to a small fit person. In motorsport large and small have the same power available so being large hurts your power to weight ratio.

3. Everyone should use all there guile, race craft and car control skills to try and beat everybody else, I thought that is what it was about, as to the cost of ballast I don's suppose it's a make or break part of your karting budget.

As I said in my original post what rules you set should be governed by what you want to measure, taking a real world example you have one make series where we are trying to remove expertise in car design from the equation and focus on setup and driving skills whilst F1 is intended to be a technical race as well so relative freedom is allowed.

If you really want to highlight driving skills and race craft you will equalise the total weight of driver and car if it is true that the lighter driver is winning for other reasons then he will still win so what is the problem?

Perhaps we should have a straight line drag racing event with light low powered cars with big grippy tyres where you can't even spin the wheels then we could remove driving skill from the equation altogether and the lightest driver would ALWAYS win.

[Jon Davis]

I am in the "below 80kg" catagory, as you will have seen by my first post, and I don't really mind which way the decisions go. Using my simulation software, yeah right, I estimate that a straight drag from stationary to 100mph takes about 0.2sec longer for the extra 10kg added, that's based on my old Hawke DL11 . . . so it is not an insignificant effect. If we are going to be pedantic then I question whether 500kg is enough as this is only 12 1/2 stone of driver (mixing units I know). I also wonder if we are kidding ourselves a little as there are many other factors that really affect the times . . . jumping from the DL11 into an RF92 has shaved almost 2 seconds off my time around the National Circut at Silverstone and 1.3 seconds off my time around the Indy Circuit at Brands Hatch. A brand new set of tyres is worth around a second around the National Circuit at Silverstone, fact from my testing for the WHT last year and, using my simulation software again, 3hp more from a good engine versus average engine is worth 1/2 second in the run from stationary to 100mph.

[Flavio Galtieri]

We're lucky enough to run at the limit but extra weight does make a difference, although all in all I'd rather run a little over with a a stonking engine than on the limit with an average one.

If you are lucky enough to run with lead you can also place it where you want, lowering the roll centre, so it's still preferable to be lighter if possible.

[ffracer]

I see Kartingdad is still using poor humour to try to prevent anyone arguing in favour of combined car & driver weights

Originally Posted by kartingdad

Its always galling to be beaten by a scrawny whippersnapper and blame it the fact he is lighter. Of course it makes a difference. But so does the fact the youngster is probably fitter, has faster reactions, a lot less imagination and often does not have to payto fix the car.

On your premise, athletes in different disciplines such as running, jumping, playing tennis would be weight/hieght equalised. But they are not. They tend to gravitate to sports which suit their physiques. why should motor racing be any different.

Old fat lardy blokes should use their guile and experience to beat the youngsters. Why should the skinnies pay for the oldies pie eating habits by buying ballast?

We've been through all this about a year ago, see:

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104688

Many sports such as boxing and martial arts divide competitors by physical attributes such as weight. They do this because otherwise the factor which determines success in the sport would be - for example - who was the heaviest person; not who was the most skilled in the sport.

The same applies to motor racing. Especially for low powered/relatively light cars like Formula Fords a 10Kg weight difference is significant in terms of performance. If you wish to maximise entries in such a formula it would seem sensible to arrange the rules to ensure that the "average" driver is not put at a significant disadvantage by a small (literally) minority. If there were enough young (or simply light-weight) drivers active in Formula Ford we wouldn't need to worry about this because the "average" driver wouldn't be at a disadvantage. This used to be the case - but it isn't now.

The only difference in this regard between motorsport and eg boxing, is that in motorsport it is possible to equalise the "non-skill" factor (in this case driver weight) by specifying a car+driver minimum weight. You can't do this in boxing - you have to have the different weight in different classes instead.

[duke_toaster]

The main historical reason for boxing weight categories was primarily a safety one. Obviously there should a minimum weight for the driver to stop them becoming like jockeys, but it shouldn't be a case of penalising lighter ones heavily.