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Old 19 Aug 2004, 05:28 (Ref:1071140)   #1
Patrick B
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Patrick B should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Carbon Rims?

Any reason why the ACO LMP's don't use carbon fiber wheels? There illegal on the DP's but from skimming the ACO rules i couldn't find any disclamer saying their not legal on the LMP1's.

Are the to expensive to justify a small weight advatage or just to fragile?
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Old 19 Aug 2004, 05:37 (Ref:1071146)   #2
Chucky
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Too fragile. They don't bend they just break!
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Old 19 Aug 2004, 06:43 (Ref:1071173)   #3
Patrick B
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It just came to mind as i was watching the cycling trials going on at the Olympics. A bunch of teams where useing carbon wheels. I would think with the right weave and resin someone should be able to build some decent carbon rims nowadays.

Didn't some of the GTP/Group C cars run them back in the day?
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Old 19 Aug 2004, 07:49 (Ref:1071212)   #4
1200Datto27
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1200Datto27 has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
The trouble with carbon in that manner is that it fatigues a lot quicker than metal, without any visible signs. If a driver bounces off of a kerb (or even has to high a sid loading), they could very easily put hairline cracks through the whole structure resulting in a massive failure and without any warning.
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Old 19 Aug 2004, 10:58 (Ref:1071386)   #5
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MulsanneMike has a real shot at the podium!MulsanneMike has a real shot at the podium!MulsanneMike has a real shot at the podium!MulsanneMike has a real shot at the podium!
And they are illegal as the ACO rules have minimum corner weights for wheel/tire.
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Old 19 Aug 2004, 13:24 (Ref:1071532)   #6
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paul-collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridpaul-collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridpaul-collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Well, not illegal - more like impractical or illogical.
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Old 20 Aug 2004, 00:26 (Ref:1072146)   #7
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they just started selling carbon rims for the street here in the states. if they can a f1 car out of them then they can make rims. why dont f1 teams use them. their all carbon crazy.
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Old 20 Aug 2004, 03:06 (Ref:1072218)   #8
1200Datto27
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1200Datto27 has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Maybe there is a reason (other than rules related) that the F1 guys do not use them, such as they found that to get them strong enough, in all directions, they would end up weighing mas much as, or more than their current magnesium rims.
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Old 20 Aug 2004, 05:12 (Ref:1072271)   #9
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the rules have a minimum density and maximum stiffness for F1 wheels i believe

nsxr- who is sellign carbon rims? our formula team experimented with them but found air leakage a big problem
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Old 20 Aug 2004, 05:36 (Ref:1072277)   #10
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I know there is more out there but this is the only company Google could find-
http://www.01designsystem.com/01_home.html

Carbon rims are alot more common on super bikes.
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Old 20 Aug 2004, 11:10 (Ref:1072554)   #11
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1200Datto27 has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Bikes (Motor and Pedal) do not tend to place as much lateral load on to a wheel as a F1 car cornering at 4+ G.
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Old 20 Aug 2004, 11:35 (Ref:1072578)   #12
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No one seriously uses them because they don't bend, they just go bang. Let me put that in to action. A driver bangs wheels with another car. If the rim is made of a malleable metal, the rim is dented and at worst the bead may lose integrity and the tyre deflates. Usually slowly. The car pits, the wheel is changed, and life goes on.

A carbon rim, when it's yeild is reached, will crack or even worse, shatter with a very high likelihood of the car losing a wheel or at least deflating a tyre in a big hurry. Either way, the car will be lucky to not end up in a crash barrier or gravel trap, let alone get back to the pits.

Anyone who uses a carbon rim on a street car deserves what they get.
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Old 20 Aug 2004, 13:06 (Ref:1072678)   #13
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1200Datto27 has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
I have had a look at the specifications in the website address above, and from reading it, it sounds like they are not actually carbon wheels, but alloy wheels with cosmetic carbon covers over the alloy spiders (center section and spokes)
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Old 20 Aug 2004, 20:29 (Ref:1073150)   #14
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Patrick B should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
If carbon tubs are strong enough to take the load/vibration and shock of the syspension mounts theres no reason someone can't make carbon rims that can take the forces the tires excert on the rim.

The more i read the more it appears that they arn't used cause most series don't allow them....
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Old 20 Aug 2004, 21:57 (Ref:1073243)   #15
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JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally posted by Patrick B
If carbon tubs are strong enough to take the load/vibration and shock of the syspension mounts theres no reason someone can't make carbon rims that can take the forces the tires excert on the rim.

The more i read the more it appears that they arn't used cause most series don't allow them....
If you did that surely you would reach the point were they weigh as much as tradional materials?
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Old 20 Aug 2004, 22:48 (Ref:1073278)   #16
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But if thats the case why bother makeing carbon tubs, why not stick with Alloy?
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Old 20 Aug 2004, 23:23 (Ref:1073299)   #17
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JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally posted by Patrick B
But if thats the case why bother makeing carbon tubs, why not stick with Alloy?
Because they are already substantial to start with. Wheels are pretty lightweight and liable to being hit regulalry.

Imagine a Carbon wheel hitting a piece of debris at 200mph and shattering like a carbon wing!

Last edited by JAG; 20 Aug 2004 at 23:24.
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Old 21 Aug 2004, 16:13 (Ref:1073707)   #18
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bf1 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Carbon tubs aren't directly hit by anything directly (the dampers take any shock) - they only take the forces of connering , Acceleration and decelleration, whereas a wheel would take a constant battering

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Old 21 Aug 2004, 19:02 (Ref:1073802)   #19
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Carbon NO Kevlar Possible

Ok then just to add to this abit carbon might shatter if hit or bent but why not use Kevlar then this stuff is very tough used to make bullet proof vests. Or a Carbon Kevlar mix that is what is used in Carbon chassis so they dont just shatter makes the structure very tough.
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Old 21 Aug 2004, 21:15 (Ref:1073898)   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Patrick B
I know there is more out there but this is the only company Google could find-
http://www.01designsystem.com/01_home.html
Those are only a carbon overlay, the structural part of the wheel is aluminum. I talked to them about those for the MT900 streetcars, since we're always looking to shave some weight off, but there was no advantage.
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Old 24 Aug 2004, 20:40 (Ref:1076469)   #21
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Rhino should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
They would also take a long time to lay up, so pushing the cost up even more.
Carbon is also slightly porous so would need to be coated to stop air escaping.
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Old 24 Aug 2004, 22:23 (Ref:1076576)   #22
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Garp should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The formula student cars use carbon rims!

One problem with carbon is the fatigue problem, the characteristics
of this is still not known. Also the impact characteristics are
uncontrollable.

The problem with Kevlar/Carbon hybrid is
that Kevlar attracts water, which has different expansion characteristics. When getting those under temperature variations those wheels will crack.

As for the lay up time there are not many problems, the labour cost's
are relatively low compared to the material cost's,
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