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Old 22 Jun 2006, 09:03 (Ref:1638871)   #26
275 GTB-4
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Gentleman Jim

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Originally Posted by David Towe
I had the very great pleasure of owning the ex JPS Team 635 that won the Australian Touring Car Champiopnship for a while and loved it. The wife unfortunately hated it and in order to keep her off my back and keep the JPS Team M3, I sold the 635.
We only took it to a couple of meetings but the crowd was always drawn to it. Fathers could be heard saying to their children, "I remember when....." or "I saw this thing win at...... when I was your age".
Jim Richards won every race in all 6 rounds of the Amscar series in 1985 in the car, such was it's dominance here. Jim actually rang me recently trying to buy the car back, too late. The car has now gone to a new home where the owner has the money to fully restore it, sadly something I couldn't afford to do.
A true classic in every sense of the word, I feel privelidged to have raced it.
Great post Dave

One thing I have always wondered is why you don't tend to see Jim at Historic meetings....I suppose its because his program is a full one. I'm sure you would agree with me that no matter who owns the car it would be absolutely fantastic to see Jim back behind the wheel wringing its neck one more time
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Old 22 Jun 2006, 11:26 (Ref:1639011)   #27
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Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4
Great post Dave

One thing I have always wondered is why you don't tend to see Jim at Historic meetings....I suppose its because his program is a full one. I'm sure you would agree with me that no matter who owns the car it would be absolutely fantastic to see Jim back behind the wheel wringing its neck one more time
Jim is chasing one of the Mobil M3s that is now in NZ. It was originally built by JPS but never raced in thier colours. The asking price is $120K. I hope he gets it and comes to play with us, I'd love to say I was beaten by "Gentleman Jim".
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Old 22 Jun 2006, 11:38 (Ref:1639027)   #28
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Old 22 Jun 2006, 11:53 (Ref:1639036)   #29
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The 635 raced in the national championships of Great Britain ,France,Germany,Belgium,Italy,Scandinavia.Australia,New Zealand and Japan.They had individual race wins but generally were unsuccessful in winning championships.Their main stomping ground was in the European Touring Car series where their reliability and sheer numbers brought much success. The only 'proper' World Touring Car championship in'87 saw the car being largely replaced by the M3,this being a pukka race car rather than the 635 which was essentially an executive cruiser which BMW turned into a successful race car out of neccessity.The 635 also ran in hillclimbs,rallies and even rallycross in France and a couple are still having fun on the Canary Islands even now.In fact both cars are for sale,so come on get those piggy banks open!! The car also had limited success in Group N but again was rather too heavy and underpowered for greater things. The cars also raced in Group 2 trim from 1980 where the cars had deeper air dams and large wheel arches and also ran 'down under' to local regulations before the Group A reg's became the norm the world over.The largest number of 635's in any one race was 22 for the 1984 Monza ETC although it has to be said that the Bulgarian entry(yes really did not appear;it did exist however!).The car was only eclipsed for sheer numbers by the M3 which is another story.People seem surprised by the numbers of cars produced but remember that BMW had a serious competitions department,BMW were growing rapidly into the popular marque that they are today and also that BMW had a long tradition of racing their products.The car was also easy for the privateer to build(I remember a car actually being completed,not repaired in the Donington paddock in 1984,a Bavaria Automobiles car).To a competent mechanic the cars would have been easy to build because BMW Motorsports provided a set of parts rather like an outsized plastic model!!

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Old 22 Jun 2006, 11:58 (Ref:1639040)   #30
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Yes that is the ex-Cheylesmore car I described earlier. Just imagine, the cars first four ever drivers were Stuck/Danner/Hobbs?palmer,not too shabby any of them!
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Old 22 Jun 2006, 14:05 (Ref:1639126)   #31
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Munich Legends sometimes have their Bastos car on display in their showroom - absolutely beautiful - alloy (bolted in) rollcage (fabricated by Matter, I think) with adjustable joints to take up the slack as the bodyshell 'relaxes'....

One point that people often forget about these cars is that they really didn't weigh as much as you'd think.

A few years ago I had to drive to Southampton and back to London on a daily basis so 'borrowed' my father's M6....I discovered a fantastic road between Winchester and Farnham and had a ball on the way home each evening...the right noise, the right power...felt like 20 laps of Spa...

Another highlight for me (this is a great thread) - anyone remember those classic Autosport covers when Schnitzer kept winning the Spa 24 hrs? Race patina has always looked good on a great saloon - I'm going to frame some of those covers one day....
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Old 22 Jun 2006, 14:55 (Ref:1639153)   #32
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Originally Posted by ian beckett
Yes that is the ex-Cheylesmore car I described earlier. Just imagine, the cars first four ever drivers were Stuck/Danner/Hobbs?palmer,not too shabby any of them!
I worked at Cheylesmore Garage when tha 635 was racing. I had to pick up a very beefy anti-roll bar (From Nick Grace near Evesham I think) before the '83 British GP ( I was Marshalling then-still do) where Hans Stuck was racing the car. Hans said the cars shell was not 100% after a shunt in Germany and described the shell as a banana!
Another driver for us was the kiwi whose only win in F3 was at a wet Mallory Park.....Who remembers his name?
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Old 22 Jun 2006, 20:32 (Ref:1639360)   #33
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The Cheylesmore(a Coventry BMW dealer?) car was a works test machine loaned by the factory to get a presence in the UK and was run by Bob Sparshott Automotive(BSA) on behalf of Cheylesmore.It was probably replaced by a brand new version later in the season?Perhaps this followed Stucks comments about it being banana shaped? I only have the following results for the car/team...Silverstone GP support race-Stuck 5th; Donington-Stuck 2nd;Brands-Stuck 3rd;Silverstone-Palmer 5th and Silverstone ETC,Danner/Hobbs retired with blown engine. I have no knowledge of a New Zealander racing the car and the only driver who fits the bill as you describe is Brett Riley?? At the end of the '83 season,Stuck/Palmer/Soper ?neve were considered for the drive but it eventually went to David Kennedy for '84,again run by BSA and as mentioned earlier sponsored by Grundig International and Penthouse(not that I remember much bare flesh as I followed the team hopefully around the country!!).
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Old 22 Jun 2006, 21:54 (Ref:1639418)   #34
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Originally Posted by ian beckett
The Cheylesmore(a Coventry BMW dealer?) car was a works test machine loaned by the factory to get a presence in the UK and was run by Bob Sparshott Automotive(BSA) on behalf of Cheylesmore.It was probably replaced by a brand new version later in the season?Perhaps this followed Stucks comments about it being banana shaped? I only have the following results for the car/team...Silverstone GP support race-Stuck 5th; Donington-Stuck 2nd;Brands-Stuck 3rd;Silverstone-Palmer 5th and Silverstone ETC,Danner/Hobbs retired with blown engine. I have no knowledge of a New Zealander racing the car and the only driver who fits the bill as you describe is Brett Riley?? At the end of the '83 season,Stuck/Palmer/Soper ?neve were considered for the drive but it eventually went to David Kennedy for '84,again run by BSA and as mentioned earlier sponsored by Grundig International and Penthouse(not that I remember much bare flesh as I followed the team hopefully around the country!!).
Yes Cheylesmore Garages were based in Coventry and BSA ran the show. We had Dave (Beaky) Simms, Ex Lotus and Hesketh, based in our Showroom!
No...Brett Riley did not drive the car.but he did win an F3 race with a Dolomite engine which is moe than can be said for his team mate whose name escapes me.........
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Old 23 Jun 2006, 02:04 (Ref:1639491)   #35
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635's

Regarding Jim Richards racing in classic meetings, both he and Robbie Francevic raced in the Dunedin (NZ) Road Race in February this year, JR in one of his old 635's and RF in a Schnitzer M3. They have both indicated that they would like to compete again next year. I agree that the 635's were fantastic looking cars and I occasionaly get to race against the one listed above.
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Old 23 Jun 2006, 07:01 (Ref:1639554)   #36
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Interesting subject. BMW in fact built 89 635 Group A cars / kits. The first 33 of which were RA1, these were based more on the production components, suspension legs etc....RA2`s were more like racing cars with a lot of special parts.
The reason they became more competetive again in 1986 was partly due to a new cylinder head that was homologated raising the output from approx 300 to 315 bhp.
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Old 23 Jun 2006, 09:15 (Ref:1639612)   #37
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Hi Alex, Knowing so much about the marque in question would I be right in assuming your second name is Elliott?...

Power output brings me back to John's question about the Vitesse output.

The standard road car had 190 bhp (although there were rumours that it was actually well over the 200 mark!) and the Grp A version put out about 290 to begin with and by the end iof TWR's ETC days it was somewhere between 320-350 bhp I think?

So as you say John, the road going Bimmer was plenty powerful enough and the M version would likely have been mighty powerful in race trim. By law of deductions we must assume that if it was homologated it could've been 350 or even upto 400 horses may have been possible?!!

I guess the advantage the Rover had in sprint trim was engine torque as BHP was roughly similar?

Stone Man you sound like quite an interesting and important person of the era, more of your stories most welcome. Both ian and yourself have confirmed the ex BSA/Cheylesmore car.

You guys may help on another front. BSA was the F2 team run by Bob Sparshott and Mike Young IIRC. Now was Mike the same guy that pedalled Angleboxes so well in the 60's? You also mention a guy who supplied a cage for the 635 from the Evesham area called Nick Grace?

Well I was in Pershore a while back on business and ended up speaking to a guy who fixes classic motorbikes, somehow we got onto the subject of touring cars (possibly because Dynamics are on the same ind est). It transpired that he used to be a major part of several touring car outfits from the 60's-80's and we were talking about Yogi Muir who I think had a go in this car and the likes of Andy Rouse etc... He mentioned a 'works' BMW/team was based with him or he had something to do with years back and I wonder if Nick, the BS 635 and Pershore/Evesham are all linked?

Folks this is turning into a fabulous thread, long may it continue

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Old 23 Jun 2006, 09:33 (Ref:1639634)   #38
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yes you are right about the name.
It was Ted Grace in Pershore, I think they were the UK Alpina inporters for a while & did all the BMW race cars in the UK for quite a while, even going back to the CSL era I think.
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Old 23 Jun 2006, 10:30 (Ref:1639666)   #39
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yes you are right about the name.
It was Ted Grace in Pershore, I think they were the UK Alpina inporters for a while & did all the BMW race cars in the UK for quite a while, even going back to the CSL era I think.
Yes, didn't Ted Grace run Frank Sytners 635? (Although ostensibly Sytners ran the car themselves).
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Old 23 Jun 2006, 10:33 (Ref:1639669)   #40
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This is an ex-Sytner car that made its way to Australia in the hands of Charlie O'Brien and the Erle McRae motorsport equipe...



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Old 23 Jun 2006, 10:33 (Ref:1639671)   #41
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Originally Posted by Alex E
BMW in fact built 89 635 Group A cars / kits. The first 33 of which were RA1, these were based more on the production components, suspension legs etc....RA2`s were more like racing cars with a lot of special parts.
Alex can you clarify this, for us, please? If there is a continuous number sequence running between RA1 and RA2, (ie RA2-26 follows on from RA1-25) where/how do these extra numbers fit in? Given your knowledge on the precise numbers built, can you identify the extras by chassis no./client?
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Old 23 Jun 2006, 10:52 (Ref:1639689)   #42
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Yes Viva, I seem to recall Sytners car was prepared/run by Ted Grace (although I hadn't realised he was based in Pershore as Alex says).

Ted Grace had a long term association with Brian Yogi Muir (who partnered Frank and someone in the BS car IIRC), and as Alex E says going back to the CSL days (which is also what this guy I spoke to talked about) would probably confirm/explain the link bewtween touring car Bimmers, a man named Grace and this knowledgeable guy I was talking to in Pershore!!!!

It's a shame I didn't make a proper note to get hold of the guys details with that motorbike shop, he'd probably be a decent source of touring car history!! He's probably still there so I ought to pop over again and see if he'd like to become a member!!

Nice pics GTR Magic, Sytner ran two cars in 1984. One was his original from ;83 whicj I think got stacked at an '84 BTCC round and a newer car which he ran for the rest of the season and into '85 I think. David Sutherland (one of Frank's old S2000 rivals) drove the rebuilt older car for the last couple of BTCC rounds in '84. I think this is the car in your pics?

Alex, as John says if you've got further info on the 635 builds it would be good.
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Old 23 Jun 2006, 10:54 (Ref:1639690)   #43
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yes you are right about the name.
It was Ted Grace in Pershore, I think they were the UK Alpina inporters for a while & did all the BMW race cars in the UK for quite a while, even going back to the CSL era I think.
BTW which name... Elliott, Young or Grace??!!
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Old 23 Jun 2006, 11:06 (Ref:1639705)   #44
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Nice pics GTR Magic, Sytner ran two cars in 1984. One was his original from ;83 whicj I think got stacked at an '84 BTCC round and a newer car which he ran for the rest of the season and into '85 I think. David Sutherland (one of Frank's old S2000 rivals) drove the rebuilt older car for the last couple of BTCC rounds in '84. I think this is the car in your pics?
Sytner also ran two cars at both of the British ETCC races in 85- the second was for John Clark/Hamish Irvine at Donington, and a couple of South African drivers , Tony Viana and Nicolo Bianco for the TT. (4 South African drivers came over for the TT- the other pair drove a Terry Drury Alfa GTV6)
Sytner shared his regular car with Michel Delcourt at Donington and John Clark at Silverstone.

Depending on when the ex-Sytner car arrived in Australia, could he have even had a third car at some time? (think there was a thread on ex-Sytner 635's a while back?)

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Old 23 Jun 2006, 11:18 (Ref:1639716)   #45
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Good one KA, a pretty full explanation of Sytner 635 activity!

The South Africans may well have been on sussing out European touring car racing to see if they fancied coming over for more regular outings (they didn't!)

I also recall that Viana was a Bimmer man at home (random pics of Green and Black wild looking SATC 535is spring to mind) this also probably explains the drives.

They may also have been hoping that Group A regs would be adopted for their home series in which case he might have been looking at buying it, I don't know?

John Clark had a Bee-em dealership and ran a prodsaloon 635 I think, so again he may have been contemplating stepping up to BTCC? (He did in the end with an M3)
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Old 23 Jun 2006, 11:35 (Ref:1639728)   #46
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The original Frank Sytner car was started in December 1982 and completed by March '83 by Ted Grace in Pershore using works supplied shell and parts.The car was then run in the '83 BTCC by Malcolm Gartlan Racing for Sytner entered under the Grace International Racing banner. A second car was then built by Grace in August '84. Both these cars were then sold by Sytner to Graham Johnson/John Morton in New Zealand. At the start of '85 Sytner acquired the three ex-BMW GB/CC Motorsport cars one of which was originally an Eggenberger car,this one was sold to a Belgian team in June of'85 who raced it in that years Spa 24 hours(Jumet Motors).One of the remaining two cars (ex-Weaver)was sold to Mike Newman at the start of the '85.The remaining car(ex-Woodman)was sold to Charlie O'Brien in Australia and is the one in yellow in the two photos above. I got this information in a letter which Frank kindly wrote to me in January '86.All the cars continued to be raced as well as switching hands for some time to come(but that is another story!).I hope this continues the thread and others who loved these cars will join in.I would still welcome more photos (particularly from 'down under') to help confirm the threads which I have developed over the years about the ownership of the other cars which went to that part of the world.Sadly Ted Grace died within the last 18 months.
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Old 23 Jun 2006, 11:49 (Ref:1639738)   #47
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The first car built was E24-RA1-001 ( as you correctly say this was the Cheylesmore car which Stuck crashed & was rebuilt with a new body, #29...) and the last car was E24-RA2-89 built in early `86. So the last RA1 was # 33 & the first RA2 was # 34.
I hope that makes sense.
I meant you were correct about my name.
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Old 23 Jun 2006, 13:14 (Ref:1639792)   #48
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The original Frank Sytner car was started in December 1982 and completed by March '83 by Ted Grace in Pershore using works supplied shell and parts.The car was then run in the '83 BTCC by Malcolm Gartlan Racing for Sytner entered under the Grace International Racing banner. A second car was then built by Grace in August '84. Both these cars were then sold by Sytner to Graham Johnson/John Morton in New Zealand. At the start of '85 Sytner acquired the three ex-BMW GB/CC Motorsport cars one of which was originally an Eggenberger car,this one was sold to a Belgian team in June of'85 who raced it in that years Spa 24 hours(Jumet Motors).One of the remaining two cars (ex-Weaver)was sold to Mike Newman at the start of the '85.The remaining car(ex-Woodman)was sold to Charlie O'Brien in Australia and is the one in yellow in the two photos above. I got this information in a letter which Frank kindly wrote to me in January '86.
So Sytner's 1985 race cars were presumably the ex-Eggenberger and ex-Woodman cars bought from BMW GB?

Charlie O'Brien did the 85 Donington ETCC race in a Volvo, (presumably hired from one of the Swedish teams)entered under the Erle McRae banner- I wonder if this is when the deal to buy the ex-Sytner 635 was done, presumably to take delivery at the end of Sytner's BTCC season?.

There's one thing that puzzles me, unless I've totally misunderstood the chronology of events- with the two original Ted Grace-built cars sold to NZ, (presumably late 84/early 85?), Sytner buys the 3 ex-BMW GB cars from CC Motorsport- one goes immediately to Mike Newman, and Sytner keeps the others to race himself. One of these is sold to Jumet in Belgium during June, (presumably after being appearing at the Donington ETCC round), and the second goes to Charlie O'Brien in Australia- presumably post-TT, but in time for Bathurst.

So, which was the second 'Sytner' car at the TT in September- did Sytner acquire a further car at some point late in the 85 season, or did the South Africans at the TT use someone else's 635, entered in Sytner's name? I don't remember whether he appeared in the 86 BTCC or not, but as far as I remember he did the 86 Donington ETCC round in a CiBiEmme 635, and the TT in an Auto Budde 325i, which certainly suggests he might not have acquired a further 635 for the 86 season
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Old 23 Jun 2006, 14:42 (Ref:1639832)   #49
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Crikey you learn something new every day!

This is all absolutely fascinating!!! I Hadn't realised Sytner bought the 3 cars off of Pete Clark and Dave Cook?!

But did CC own them or did BMW GB sort of lease them to CC?

Further info on this is that Vince Woodman heavily crumped his car at Donington, which was then repaired but he was quite hurt in that shunt. IIRC he missed the International Trophy round before coming back for the Easter events and completing the season.

Weaver also 'shortened' his regular car in a test/qualy shunt at the Mayday Thruxton event, which from memory forced him into the ex Eggenberger car (or he may even have missed the round altogether?)

The other interesting bits of info are that the 2 main CC cars had Neil Brown prepared engines, continuing the excellent relations between CC and the famed engine builder from the Capri days. However, the ex Eggenberger car didn't and apparently the difference in perfromance from the 2 types of unit was quite marked. This may have been simply down to the fact that this car and engine were 1983 spec and not '84 spec?

Malcolm Gartlan is the other name I couldn't think of linked to Grace and Yogi Muir. The guy I spoke to in Pershore couldn't have been the late Ted then as I spoke to him about a year ago? I can'r temember the guys name but he was quite small with glasses and quite thick set grey hair. Thanks for all this ian.

You mention the Belgian cars (one of which was the ex Eggenberger/CC spare mentioned above) and those Bastos backed cars were usually a force and wasn't it Juma and not Jumet?

Then of course Eddy Joosen one of their ragular drivers I think agreed to drive for TWR and probably had a hand in persuading the fag firm to go with him!
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"Double Kidney Guv'nah?"
"No thanks George they're still wavin a white flag!"
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Old 23 Jun 2006, 14:59 (Ref:1639839)   #50
chunterer
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I also learned from Mr Clark at the time that CC were planning on a Group C project based around a Lamborghini engine and a Spice or Tiga built chassis. Possibly as a reaction to Gordon Spice's excellent debut in WSC at the time.

This is partly why the Bimmer programme ended after only one season.

I never quite understod why tey only did the one year, possibly because '83/84 was quite a turbulent period for the regulations and stewards??!!

The Group C programme didn't come off so CC basically disbanded and Dave Cook went off to run various saloons like the Thundersaloons.

I would imagine that if they hadn't decided on the fledgling sportscar idea then they would have continued in Group A with something or other?
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