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Old 31 Mar 2007, 11:12 (Ref:1880373)   #1
Robbe
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Portuguese Touring Car Championship

I was looking through the image galleries of Seat Sport when I found some pictures of the Portugese Touring Car Championship. I had a look on its homepage (www.ptcc.com.pt) and saw they already had their first two runs in Estoril. There are good drivers as Cesár Campánico in the series, and good cars as some BMW 320si E90, two Alfa 156 (one is the ex-Andersson car i think),and a lot Seat León Supercopa.
The winners of the first event were Francisco Carvalho in a León Supercopa and Campánico in a BMW 320si.
I hope someone knows more about this series, it's looking interesting.
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Old 31 Mar 2007, 15:27 (Ref:1880492)   #2
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Originally Posted by Robbe
two Alfa 156 (one is the ex-Andersson car i think)
Cant be, that car is in Italy right now for preparations for the opening round of STCC where Andersson will drive it, just as last season. So has to be someone else then.
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Old 3 Apr 2007, 18:37 (Ref:1882872)   #3
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Sorry, that IS the Andersson the car. The other Alfa is the ex-Balzan car. Campaniço's team mate is Ni Amorim, both in BMWs.

There's zero works manufacturer envolvement. The championship allows four classes: S2000 (three Beemers, two Alfas, one Peugeot coming in the second round), Superproduction (no cars, no interest), N-3000 (five Leon Supercopas, one E46 320d coming in the second round) and N-2000 (ten cars in round one, mostly the cars from previous years, many ex-Clio MkII Cup, some Gr. N Civic Type-Rs, a couple of Copa Alfa 147s, and an Integra from the Japanese cup).

The calendar is made up of 8 double-headers, all races are standing starts.
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Old 4 Apr 2007, 08:09 (Ref:1883176)   #4
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Originally Posted by EuropaBambaataa
the other Alfa is the ex-Balzan car.
According to the WTCC site the car entered by Racing for Belgium for Miguel Freitas in WTCC is the ex-Balzan car.
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Old 4 Apr 2007, 09:24 (Ref:1883209)   #5
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Not a bad grid at all, 6 S2000 cars considering there is no official involvement is quite good actually.

Do you think the series will have a future? Isn't it too expensive for a small market like Portugal? What is the tv coverage? Over here there is a debate on what Greece will do in the future and we think S2000 might be a mistake because a) it costs too much, b) the cars require technical sophistication which is provided only by professional teams. Since there are none of them locally, people will need Italian or whatever teams and this would cost a fortune. Thus we are stuck with Group A - like 1600 hatchbacks but this is also a problem since the 106s and Saxos are so strong that noone in their right mind will ever build a current production car to compete with them, the difference in weight is enormous. A vicious circle
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Old 4 Apr 2007, 11:31 (Ref:1883297)   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bramzel
According to the WTCC site the car entered by Racing for Belgium for Miguel Freitas in WTCC is the ex-Balzan car.
It's the other ex-Balzan car. Sorry, it was bought from DB Motorsport as well, which was my confusion, the actual driver was Salvatore Tavano in 2005 - it's a 2003 GTA bodied car.

----

[quote=Go_For_Pole]Do you think the series will have a future?[quote]

I hope so. The championship went downhill in 1987 and has never come back since. Group A ended in 1991 (you either a RS500 or you were screwed), Group N might have continued, but they introduced Supertouring in 1993, it proved too expensive, and there was no championship in 1995 and 1996. Ever since 1997 the championship has basically been a repository for ex-Cup cars.

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Isn't it too expensive for a small market like Portugal? What is the tv coverage?
Expensive? It might be for most of the drivers. That's why we have many classes. TV? The first round had about half an hour TV exposure in a PPV cable TV channel. As far as I know, the mainstream media ignored it, but that's usual here. It'll get better for the Boavista round.

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Over here there is a debate on what Greece will do in the future and we think S2000 might be a mistake because a) it costs too much, b) the cars require technical sophistication which is provided only by professional teams.
What about Superproduction? Nobody picked one of these in Portugal, but we have the leftover Cup cars and Group N Civics.
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Old 4 Apr 2007, 12:15 (Ref:1883319)   #7
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A S200-championship on the Iberian peninsula would be great. Whith tracks as Jerez, Jarama, Barcelona, Valencia, Albacete, Braga and Estoril, you can have a great championschip. And you can join the WTCC at 3 circuits, Valencia, Porto and Pau, which is in France, but near Spain. I can name you at least 1 manufacturer that would join...
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Old 4 Apr 2007, 13:07 (Ref:1883366)   #8
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Originally Posted by EuropaBambaataa
TV? The first round had about half an hour TV exposure in a PPV cable TV channel. As far as I know, the mainstream media ignored it, but that's usual here. It'll get better for the Boavista round.
Same here, except we do not have a flagship event like yours. Not that the Acropolis rally is doing any major benefit to our national rallying series though.

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Originally Posted by EuropaBambaataa
What about Superproduction? Nobody picked one of these in Portugal, but we have the leftover Cup cars and Group N Civics.
Super Production is slowly faing away, no new customer car programes that I know of so it is not really the best prospect for the future. FIA seems to think that s2000 is suitable for all countries but sadly that's definately not the case. For weaker markets the cars are so expensive that you end up with a small field full of rich gentleman drivers, not exactly inspiring for fans
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Old 4 Apr 2007, 13:12 (Ref:1883370)   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Go_For_Pole
Not a bad grid at all, 6 S2000 cars considering there is no official involvement is quite good actually.

Do you think the series will have a future? Isn't it too expensive for a small market like Portugal? What is the tv coverage? Over here there is a debate on what Greece will do in the future and we think S2000 might be a mistake because a) it costs too much, b) the cars require technical sophistication which is provided only by professional teams. Since there are none of them locally, people will need Italian or whatever teams and this would cost a fortune. Thus we are stuck with Group A - like 1600 hatchbacks but this is also a problem since the 106s and Saxos are so strong that noone in their right mind will ever build a current production car to compete with them, the difference in weight is enormous. A vicious circle
In greece you could just merge it with some other series and for a Mediteranian (SIC) Touring Car Championship - maybe merge the Portugese and Spanish ones to form an Iberian championship with a round or two in France. Doesn't the French championship use 3.5L V6 silhouettes or something ...

It's a sad fact of life that some championships will need to merge to survive.
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Old 4 Apr 2007, 13:41 (Ref:1883385)   #10
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It is indeed, no arguments there. But realisticaly it is way more economical to have common races with Italians, Turks and other Balcans. Problem is neither of those have a strong touring car championship, especially sad is that Italians are still strugling even with Peroni Promotion running the show.

Spain, Portugal and France are way out of reach, to give you an idea the equivelant of going from Greece to Spain is roughly like going from UK to Russia in terms of klms. Having said that it is true that us Meds have the same mentality and also that from next year there will be a GT championship across our area so maybe that is a platform one could build on not only for touring cars but also single seaters.
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Old 4 Apr 2007, 16:46 (Ref:1883499)   #11
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French silhouette championship exists no longer.
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Old 4 Apr 2007, 21:06 (Ref:1883659)   #12
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Originally Posted by FIRE
French silhouette championship exists no longer.
Did anything take it's place?
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Old 5 Apr 2007, 05:41 (Ref:1883805)   #13
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About French Silhouette , from what i know and as FIRE said there is no more championship, some drivers and Teams are now racing in "Grand Tourisme" GT or even in Porsche Carrera Cup in France

I think some of the Silhouette are now racing in Belgian BELCAR-BTCS championship

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Old 5 Apr 2007, 08:41 (Ref:1883918)   #14
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Originally Posted by EuropaBambaataa
Sorry, that IS the Andersson the car.
Is it an older one of Andersson's cars? As recently as March 21 Andersson reported to STCC.se that he would race his Alfa Romeo 156 again this season (on a much tighter budget) and that the car currently was in Italy being upgraded.
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Old 5 Apr 2007, 16:53 (Ref:1884286)   #15
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Is it an older one of Andersson's cars? As recently as March 21 Andersson reported to STCC.se that he would race his Alfa Romeo 156 again this season (on a much tighter budget) and that the car currently was in Italy being upgraded.
Important: did he say his Alfa Romeo or an Alfa Romeo?
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Old 5 Apr 2007, 17:22 (Ref:1884302)   #16
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Originally Posted by Go_For_Pole
FIA seems to think that s2000 is suitable for all countries but sadly that's definately not the case. For weaker markets the cars are so expensive that you end up with a small field full of rich gentleman drivers, not exactly inspiring for fans
Perhaps you could use heavy penalty weights that encourage teams to use older cars? There's S2000 cars dating back to 2000? Surely those could be affordable to the smaller championships by now?
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Old 5 Apr 2007, 17:51 (Ref:1884321)   #17
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Originally Posted by Go_For_Pole
It is indeed, no arguments there. But realisticaly it is way more economical to have common races with Italians, Turks and other Balcans. Problem is neither of those have a strong touring car championship, especially sad is that Italians are still strugling even with Peroni Promotion running the show.

Spain, Portugal and France are way out of reach, to give you an idea the equivelant of going from Greece to Spain is roughly like going from UK to Russia in terms of klms. Having said that it is true that us Meds have the same mentality and also that from next year there will be a GT championship across our area so maybe that is a platform one could build on not only for touring cars but also single seaters.
It must have been a usual clear-as-mud post problem. I meant the French (Most likely to be southern ones), Spanish and Portugese championships becoming a Western Medditeranian Touring Car Championship (WMTCC) and an Eastern Medditeranian TCC with Balkan races, one or two trips to Istanbul and also Greece.

In Belgium they run various classes of car on one track (from 'Vettes to Saxos) - maybe that principle of having a combined GT(3 and possibly GT2. The French have a national GT1 championship, which is stupid really) and Touring Car championship. Two 45 minute races in each meeting would suit both touring cars and GT.

Last edited by duke_toaster; 5 Apr 2007 at 17:55.
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Old 6 Apr 2007, 10:08 (Ref:1884777)   #18
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson
Important: did he say his Alfa Romeo or an Alfa Romeo?
Andersson said he would race the same Alfa as he raced last season, its an old 2003 car with 2004 updates on. I cant imagine he had an other Alfa before this one (S2000), cause then why would he buy such an old car?
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Old 6 Apr 2007, 12:40 (Ref:1884884)   #19
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Andersson said he would race the same Alfa as he raced last season, its an old 2003 car with 2004 updates on. I cant imagine he had an other Alfa before this one (S2000), cause then why would he buy such an old car?
But wasn't the order of news this way?

1. Andersson: "It's 90% certain that I will race STCC next year. 50/50 between my current Alfa, a 2003 spec car with 2004 updates, or some other car."
2. The Alfa is for sale (MotorsportAds)
3. The Alfa is sold to Portugal - this part I remember correctly
4. Mattias confirmed for 2007 with Alfa Romeo - the car was down in Italy being prepared for the season, it was reported.

Question is, has he said "post-sale" that he would keep racing the same car?
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Old 6 Apr 2007, 13:41 (Ref:1884909)   #20
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I think there must be a a platform for the s2000 touringcars and the s2000 cars for the IRC (International Rallye Challange). The World Rallye Cars are too expansive for now and the future. The s2000 reglement is a good platform for rallye or touringcar. A manufacturer can develope one car and can start in some rallye series or touringcar series. The engines, gearboxes or suspensions are the same for the different series. That is a base for a cheaper motorsport.
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Old 6 Apr 2007, 14:23 (Ref:1884929)   #21
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I agree there, S2000 could very well be for rally and touringcars what the GT3 concept is proving to be for the (national) GT series. Lower costs, closer competition, tighter rules.
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Old 6 Apr 2007, 19:48 (Ref:1885094)   #22
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Ideally the S2000 rally cars would replace the WRC spec which is stupidly expensive.

I'd love someone to have an S2000 24 hour race :P
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Old 7 Apr 2007, 12:58 (Ref:1885411)   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Power
I think there must be a a platform for the s2000 touringcars and the s2000 cars for the IRC (International Rallye Challange). The World Rallye Cars are too expansive for now and the future. The s2000 reglement is a good platform for rallye or touringcar. A manufacturer can develope one car and can start in some rallye series or touringcar series. The engines, gearboxes or suspensions are the same for the different series. That is a base for a cheaper motorsport.
S2000 touring car and S2000 rally is not the same.
For example the rally version is 4WD.
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Old 7 Apr 2007, 18:53 (Ref:1885570)   #24
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IIRC, Ford shared development of their Focus WRC and their TC2000 Focus. Could the same be applied for S2000?
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Old 7 Apr 2007, 20:19 (Ref:1885628)   #25
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Originally Posted by FIRE
S2000 touring car and S2000 rally is not the same.
For example the rally version is 4WD.
Doesn't matter that details differ, a lot of things such as engines and bodyshells can be shared, which will make development a lot easier.
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