[Official] Round 18: Brazilian Grand Prix

[Wims]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

So if I rob a bank and that makes me richer, can I consider that to be absolutely justified?

You realize that this happens pretty much every year right? LH won the WDC because of team orders. Do you recon that his title was a sham?

[Knowlesy]

Looking like Ferrari made the right decision at Hockenheim more and more.

I applaud them.

[Oliallan]

Amazing that Red Bull aren't using team orders and something that needs recognition and congratulations. If Alonso gets the title that is one helll of a sacrifice that Red Bull will have made. At least they got the well deserved constructors title.

[Born Racer]

Welcome to Ten-Tenths, Oliallan.

I agree that will have been a sacrificice but the sporting one, the fair one and the one that's actually following the rules.

What cracks me up is when people talk about how drivers have to drive for the team. I don't hear much 'team' in the word 'drivers' championship'. The only (and significant) team element in it is the design, construction and development of the car. Other than that it is down to the drivers to battle it out. If you don't beat your team mate fairly, then you're not the champion because you haven't beaten everyone.

The constructors' championship is the only pure championship. So on that front, well done to Red Bull even if they did labour it.

[Super Hans]

Pfft.

If Vettel had been in Webber's championship position (and vice versa) they'd have been using team orders for weeks.

[Born Racer]

We have no idea if Red Bull have not been going the Ferrari route because of a perceived favouritism of Vettel. Marko clearly loves Vettel but I'm not sure everyone else in Red Bull minds.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

We have no idea if Red Bull have not been going the Ferrari route because of a perceived favouritism of Vettel. Marko clearly loves Vettel but I'm not sure everyone else in Red Bull minds.

I'm not sure if they mind personally but they have to dance to the tune of Helmut Marko. And Vettel is clearly Marko's man. Webber doing this well was never part of the plan.

[Born Racer]

But now he is doing so well over the course of the season, why would a Webber WDC not be better than no WDC? Maybe they don't see it this way but I find it odd.

If they actually are doing this for sporting reasons, then I applaud them.

[frostie]

I think its commendable that Red Bull didnt emply team orders but it's a shortsighted decision that could easily come back to bite the team. While Vettel is still in contention his hopes are hanging by a thread-he needs Alonso to finish outside the top four(not likely barring mechanical problems) and instead of Webber needing just a win he now has to rely on Alonso finishing below third. It's a can of worms that could have been easily avoided by telling Vettel to allow Webber past.

Below is a post from my website that might of interest. It also goes into one of the possible situations that could arise if Alonso does actually retire. As I said in some ways its great that Red Bull are not employing orders but in F1 you need to maximise your potential for success, not rely on Alonso hitting trouble etc.

************************************************************

Red Bull wins Brazilian battle, but could have cost itself the war

Red Bull clinched their first constructors’ title after a dominant 1-2 finish in Brazil. The team though may have cost themselves the world drivers’ title in the process.

Sebastian Vettel throughout the race ahead of Mark Webber with Red Bull showing its class and easily opening a ten second lead over the Ferrari of championship leader Fernando Alonso. The trio finished in that order with Alonso now holding a commanding eight point lead over Webber with Vettel 15 points off the lead. The season ends this weekend with the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix and the decisions made by Red Bull in Brazil could come back to haunt them when the 55 lap race around the Yas Marina Circuit ends.

With Vettel 15 points adrift it is clear that he needs quite a help from lady luck if he is to become the youngest world champion in history. Since July’s German Grand Prix Alonso has been on the podium in all but one race, a crash in Belgium his only failure. As a result it is unlikely to imagine that with the title on the line that he will not have another strong race. If Alonso finishes fourth Vettel cannot win the title, as a result it is easy to see just how perilous the German’s chances are.

His teammate isn’t too much better off either though. By finishing second in Brazil Webber managed to close the gap to Alonso down to eight points, a gap greater than the points difference between first and second. So even if the Australian wins in the Middle East he is not guaranteed to join compatriots Jack Brabham and Alan Jones as world champions. If on the other hand Red Bull had ordered Vettel to concede the win in Brazil to his teammate Webber would find himself just a single point behind Alonso. Armed with the fastest car Webber would have been ideally placed to win the title.

Red Bull would have done well to look through the annals of history and seen numerous examples of teams shooting themselves in the foot and costing themselves the chance of maximising their potential for success. A recent example was the BMW team in 2008. In the team’s third season they had stated their aim was to win a race and then challenge for the title the next season. When Robert Kubica won the Canadian Grand Prix he took the lead of the championship but within three races the team had already stopped developing the car and turned attentions to the next season.

Last season was a disaster for BMW with the team failing so miserably that by the end of the year the team was sold back to previous owner Peter Sauber and BMW left Formula 1 with its tail between its legs. Thinking that they could take the same incremental approach to racing was a mistake and the lessons of BMW’s and Toyota’s failures in Formula 1 show that when opportunity calls a team needs to maximise their chances of winning, because there is no guarantee that they will come again.

This race was quite illuminating in that it showed Red Bull in numerous lights. The team had just achieved its greatest triumph by taking the constructors’ championship but it also showed its complete inexperience in terms of winning championships. Much like BMW they seem to be taking an approach that things will “fall into place.” In the ultra competitive world of Formula 1 things rarely work out as hoped and teams needs to do all they can to give them the best chance of success.

The decision made by Red Bull showed once more why Mark Webber feels that he does not receive the necessary support. To show the dangers that Red Bull have placed themselves in it is useful to see how things could unfold if Alonso retires in Abu Dhabi and the Red Bull drivers are left to fight it out for the title.

If Vettel is leading from Webber when Alonso retires the teammates will provisionally be on equal points, but Vettel would win the title on a count back of wins. This would create a crazy situation where Webber would have nothing to lose and everything to gain. He would try even the most unlikely overtaking move. If they collided and both drivers retired Alonso would take the title and Red Bull would have a lot of egg on its face.

This potential situation could have been easily avoided. Red Bull’s won the battle in Brazil but might have cost itself the war.

[Born Racer]

One of my favourite moments of the weekend was the pre-qualifying piece on the BBC about Felipe Massa and Rob Smedley.

It reminded me of an article on the news recently about the world's oldest married couple talking about the ups and downs of their relationship.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

So if I rob a bank and that makes me richer, can I consider that to be absolutely justified?

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Looking like Ferrari made the right decision at Hockenheim more and more.

I applaud them.

So if I manage to start a thermonuclear wargame which annihilates mankind, but it means I will never lose a game of noughts and crosses again that is OK then?

[Bononi]

This is all becoming very interesting... it's a shame that we could and problably will have a champion that has no character.





Which band/singer sings "No rest for the wicked" ? It's a perfect soundtrack for next weekend.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by Adam43

So if I manage to start a thermonuclear wargame which annihilates mankind, but it means I will never lose a game of noughts and crosses again that is OK then?

Fair's fair.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Bononi

This is all becoming very interesting... it's a shame that we could and problably will have a champion that has no character.

er, which one specifically are you referring too

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Which band/singer sings "No rest for the wicked" ? It's a perfect soundtrack for next weekend.

Cage The Elephant. and its called Ain't no rest for the wicked

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Cage The Elephant. and its called Ain't no rest for the wicked

Never heard of them, however Slayer have a track called 'Mandatory Suicide', which is what Vettel may have to commit, if RBR's are to add the WDC to their constructor's success.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by Bononi

This is all becoming very interesting... it's a shame that we could and problably will have a champion that has no character.

Don't we already have one?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by dsg

Don't we already have one?

I'm not into favourite drivers but I like Button and he comes across well when interviewed.

[frostie]

Taken from my website
*********************************************************
1. Red Bull deserve constructors title
Throughout 2010 Red Bull has consistently had the fastest car and as a result it was fitting that the team wrapped up its first constructors’ title with their fourth 1-2 finish of the year.

The Adrian Newey designed RB6 has been head and shoulders above the competition in qualifying with the car taking 14 of 18 pole positions thus far, this is the third different team that Newey has won the title with. He attributed the successes of the year to the freshness of new regulations allowing his design team to gain a march on rival teams.

"I think we have been fortunate in a way in that the rules are still to some extent in their infancy," said Newey. "We are the second year into a very big set of regulation changes and with some fairly significant winter changes this year, and that helps to differentiate.

"If you can come up with fresh ideas, new ideas that steal a march then that happens. If you get to a position where we got to at the end of 2008 where we were many years into very stable regulations then it becomes very difficult to find new avenues."

With the constructors’ title wrapped up the team must now concentrate on claiming a first drivers' title. This feat gained extra complications over the weekend.

2. Christian Horner and Red Bull need to examine their tactics
Red Bull team principle Christian Horner spoke afterwards about the implementation of team orders in his team at Abu Dhabi. “It’s not down to us to put team orders, the drivers know that they need each other. It would have been wrong for us this weekend to remove one of the drivers from the World Championship effectively. If they’re in that situation I’ve every confidence that they will do the best thing for the company, which is to ensure that we achieve the best result,” said Horner.

Elsewhere I have discussed Red Bull’s Brazilian GP in detail.

It is ridiculous that with the title to be decided next week that Horner feels that the drivers should make decisions impacting on the success of the team. It is in a driver’s nature to be selfish, why would they move over for their teammate if there was only a miniscule chance of winning the title. It is at these moments that the team needs to stand strong and tell their drivers exactly what to do. Horner needs to look at the big picture and make the most of the opportunity that is presenting itself for the team.

3. Five contenders become three
Five drivers went to Brazil in title contention but only Alonso, Vettel and Webber can still claim to have a realistic chance of the title.

This was another weekend where the McLaren team were outclassed by their rivals. Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button finished fourth and fifth but ultimately the teams struggle with tyre life ended the hopes of both drivers. Button, starting from 11th, did well to make his way through the field with a great strategic call and was the first driver to pit and change tyres. With fresh rubber Button was able to get ahead of Hülkenberg and Kubica before Hamilton stopped and rejoined just ahead of his teammate.

Both though struggled to make much of an impression on the proceedings ahead of them with the Red Bull drivers and Alonso able to open a gap. With his world championship hopes teetering on the edge Hamilton pressed too hard on the prime tyres and ultimately suffered problems with tyre wear. When Liuzzi brought out the safety car McLaren called both drivers into the pits for fresh tyres for the final 15 laps.

Hamilton would have expected to challenge the leaders given his tyre advantage but the former champion was stuck behind a gaggle of backmarkers and therefore unable to make use of his fresh tyres. Taking almost ten laps to clear the traffic Hamilton lost too much time and not even a string of fastest laps could bring him back into contention. Hamilton now is 24 points adrift of Alonso and all but out of contention barring a massive shock in Abu Dhabi.

Button was also was caught in this mire and saw his hopes officially end with his fifth place finish.

4. Hülkenberg’s pole shows the value of talent over money
Nico Hülkenberg took a sensational pole position in Brazil that showed once more the values of a talented driver to a midfield team. Williams are yet to confirm their driver line up for next season with Pastor Maldonado heavily linked with the team but they would be better to take a driver based on ability rather than take a driver based on budget.

Hülkenberg started the season poorly but has developed well throughout the summer. It is worth noting that with a lack of preseason testing that rookie drivers take quite a few races to finally gain equivalent mileage to what we saw the likes of Hamilton acquiring before his rookie season. As a result rookies need to be given time to come to terms with the demands of Formula 1.

The team have already financed the development of Hülkenberg and turned him into a consistent point scorer and a driver gaining in respect amongst the field. By scoring points the German was able to move Williams into sixth in the constructors’ championship. If Williams take the decision to let Hülkenberg leave the team it will be a clear indication that the team is in a perilous financial state. The benefit of having a talented driver over a rich driver can be seen at Renault where Petrov has offered little assistance in their attempts to take fourth from Mercedes.

The form of Kubica shows the potential of the team, their decision to hire Petrov has potentially cost them a lot more due to the cost of lost points. Williams would do well to take a “big picture” view when they finally decide their driver line-up.

5. Brazil needs to stay on the calendar
With Jenson Button’s carjacking generating a huge amount of negative publicity for Sao Paulo after the world champion was involved in an attempted armed robbery as he left the circuit on Saturday. With Button’s escape at the centre of attention it was easy for a very negative picture of the city to emerge.

Even so it is crucial for Formula 1 to retain Brazil on the calendar. As one of the last remaining “traditional style” circuits it is a venue that captures the imagination of fans and drivers alike. Brazil is also one of the fastest growing economies in the world and with new oil reserves being found on a consistent basis it is in the best interest of the sport to continue racing there.

The final reason that F1 needs to continue racing at Interlagos is that this is the world championship. It is therefore imperative that the sport continues to host races in South America. With Argentina no longer visited Brazil is the only viable host nation as things stand and while the facilities are clearly poor in Sao Paulo there are very few that wish to see the back of this great circuit.

With terrific racing almost a guarantee in recent years Button was keen to state that while it was a terrifying experience that he saw no reason for Brazil to be dropped from the calendar due to safety concerns.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I think it's a good analogy. So Adam, should F1 teams be allowed to drive with illegal parts, just because they "always have"?

[strider]

Originally Posted by frostie

Nico Hülkenberg took a sensational pole position in Brazil that showed once more the values of a talented driver to a midfield team. Williams are yet to confirm their driver line up for next season with Pastor Maldonado heavily linked with the team but they would be better to take a driver based on ability rather than take a driver based on budget.

Hülkenberg started the season poorly but has developed well throughout the summer. It is worth noting that with a lack of preseason testing that rookie drivers take quite a few races to finally gain equivalent mileage to what we saw the likes of Hamilton acquiring before his rookie season. As a result rookies need to be given time to come to terms with the demands of Formula 1.

The team have already financed the development of Hülkenberg and turned him into a consistent point scorer and a driver gaining in respect amongst the field. By scoring points the German was able to move Williams into sixth in the constructors’ championship. If Williams take the decision to let Hülkenberg leave the team it will be a clear indication that the team is in a perilous financial state.

Taking the last point first, by moving Williams into 6th place in the constructors' championship Hülkenberg will have earned them a big increase in the TV money pay out, provided they keep the place in Abu Dhabi. That alone may be more than Maldonado may be bringing to the team, so unless they have desperate cash-flow problems they would do much better to keep him.

Regarding Hülkenberg's development, that does seem to be how he is when he's learning something new. When it happened it the F3ES I thought it was down to adapting to the high grip/not enough power F3 car after the opposite in A1GP.

Maybe it was and that's why he was so quick straightaway in GP2, which has good grip and good power, so it was a combination of the two. Either way, I totally agree that the lack of testing is a big drawback for drivers like him.

PS I don't mean this to sound impertinent but in the heading instead of putting: "Five things I think following the Brazilian Grand Prix", why don't you try something simpler such as: "Five thoughts [I have] following the Brazilian Grand Prix." Just an idea.

[frostie]

Originally Posted by strider

Maybe it was and that's why he was so quick straightaway in GP2, which has good grip and good power, so it was a combination of the two. Either way, I totally agree that the lack of testing is a big drawback for drivers like him.

I have to admit I didn't really watch A1GP in great detail when Hulkenberg was in it but looking at his time in F3 and GP2 it definitely points to what you're saying.

I do think though that the FIA needs to do something about the amount of testing that rookies get. Having the end of season test isn't sufficient in my eyes-especially if there are driver changes during the season (Alguersuari and Kobayashi last season for example)having them test on a simulator is hardly fair on the rookie and could easily create a situation that could paint the sport in a bad light of having unprepared drivers. I remember in the IRL(I think) they had numerous inexperienced drivers causing pretty serious accidents a few years ago.

Originally Posted by strider

PS I don't mean this to sound impertinent but in the heading instead of putting: "Five things I think following the Brazilian Grand Prix", why don't you try something simpler such as: "Five thoughts [I have] following the Brazilian Grand Prix." Just an idea.

I probably shouldnt admit this but I never really put much thought into the headline and just threw something onto my site when I started it a few months ago. But your suggestion works a lot better so expect me to use it in future! Cheers Strider!

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Hole shots is I believe the phrase you are looking for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hole_shot

Ahhh typos... the bane of every internet keyboard warrior's existence