James Warburton declares V8 Supercars the best motorsports ‘product on the planet’

[one five five]

Originally Posted by FAS33

I'm sure you and I would agree the racing these days are better then they've ever been.

Depends on your definition of 'racing'

I don't think we do agree

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by Casper

I don't know why there is so much criticism of SUPERCARS, note the lack of V8 in that. It is a good spectacle for those who are into that sort of thing but tends to be a little boring at times due to restrictive rules and regs and a bit follow the leader because of it. Things are about to change and let's hope the rules don't stifle that change too much but a Leopard does not change his spots so I guess they will follow the well worn recipe of preventing anything that looks like innovative thinking from happening. Restrictive regs have always resulted in huge amounts of folding being spent on minute changes for very little result and generally one team dominates when they perfect it. For all the faults of bygone classes most of them allowed some technical advances which made things interesting.

Well....for a bloke who didn't know why there was so much criticism of V8SC...sorry Supercars, I counted at least five complaints/criticisms.
Get your drift though.

[Matt]

This is a pointless, annoying argument.

Old guys will never like anything in the modern day, as it's not "true and pure" enough.

Me, I'd rather see close racing from a parity format than a car winning by 6 laps in a more wide open formula.

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by Matt

This is a pointless, annoying argument.

Old guys will never like anything in the modern day, as it's not "true and pure" enough..................

Well... that's just a typical response from the younger generation.....
Imagine..... wanting to see something "true and pure", instead of a circus act. However, everyone is entitled to an opinion!

[Woolley]

A great race is a great race whatever's running. A mixed vehicle contest can be more fun as different cars are strong at different times, or it can be dull because one of them is superior. One make can be fun because they're all bunched up, or dull because no-one can overtake.

Older cars were more exciting to watch because they had less grip, less downforce and they move around, you can see the drivers working. On the other hand, modern cars are more exciting because the grip levels and braking performance is astonishing.

I don't really care as long as the racing is good. Consequently I'm not usually too keen on messing around with artificial ways to make it good, as they're usually not as good as the genuine article and are usually a fix for not getting the basics right in the first place.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Woolley

A great race is a great race whatever's running. A mixed vehicle contest can be more fun as different cars are strong at different times, or it can be dull because one of them is superior. One make can be fun because they're all bunched up, or dull because no-one can overtake.

Older cars were more exciting to watch because they had less grip, less downforce and they move around, you can see the drivers working. On the other hand, modern cars are more exciting because the grip levels and braking performance is astonishing.

I don't really care as long as the racing is good. Consequently I'm not usually too keen on messing around with artificial ways to make it good, as they're usually not as good as the genuine article and are usually a fix for not getting the basics right in the first place.

Which is why the Supercars are fantastic.

[leothedrummer]

Originally Posted by FAS33

I'm sure you and I would agree the racing these days are better then they've ever been.

Define "better".

[leothedrummer]

Originally Posted by Woolley

A great race is a great race whatever's running. A mixed vehicle contest can be more fun as different cars are strong at different times, or it can be dull because one of them is superior. One make can be fun because they're all bunched up, or dull because no-one can overtake.

Older cars were more exciting to watch because they had less grip, less downforce and they move around, you can see the drivers working. On the other hand, modern cars are more exciting because the grip levels and braking performance is astonishing.

I don't really care as long as the racing is good. Consequently I'm not usually too keen on messing around with artificial ways to make it good, as they're usually not as good as the genuine article and are usually a fix for not getting the basics right in the first place.

Well said

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

Well... that's just a typical response from the younger generation.....
Imagine..... wanting to see something "true and pure", instead of a circus act. However, everyone is entitled to an opinion!

Australian Motor racing has been a circus act since the 70's.

[velly4]

I think the series is great. For such a small country to have a championship as professional as it is is quite a feat.
But being 100% honest I do wish we had cars with different strengths and weakness.

And for the series to put a little more back into the sport instead of bleed every cent they can.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by velly4

I think the series is great. For such a small country to have a championship as professional as it is is quite a feat.
But being 100% honest I do wish we had cars with different strengths and weakness.

And for the series to put a little more back into the sport instead of bleed every cent they can.

There are somewhere around 600 people working full time in the Virgin series, plus the Dunlop series and others. These roles would largely not have been in place to that extent in the Group A era, or the Group C era, and indeed are not prevalent in the GT3 category either.

There is plenty being put back..

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

......


There is plenty being put back..

into the grass roots of Australian motorsport?
I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong, but that's not what I hear from many people

[Matt]

Why would anything need to be put back into the grassroots community?

It's a business, you don't see other businesses "putting back" into the smaller ones.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Matt

Why would anything need to be put back into the grassroots community?

It's a business, you don't see other businesses "putting back" into the smaller ones.

Hang on - there is a sport somewhere isn't there? V8SC talk about the 'sport' all the time but you are suggesting they are only referring to their business?

When V8SC promote 50 years of Bathurst or 40 years of the ATCC aren't they drawing off the history and previous work of the sport?

And you ask "why should they give back"

Where would V8SC be without Australian Motorsport or the "smaller businesses" are you so eloquently put it?

Not buying GTRs attempt at justification either - totally misses the point

[dsg]

Originally Posted by Matt

This is a pointless, annoying argument.

Old guys will never like anything in the modern day, as it's not "true and pure" enough.

Me, I'd rather see close racing from a parity format than a car winning by 6 laps in a more wide open formula.

Is 51 old? Just trying to work out if I should be indignant or not?

Now I could say something like "Why are most young people opinionated armholes? (auto correct - damn you modern technology)" but that would be rude and against forum rules so I will restrain myself.

I like good racing too, but don't particularly care if it comes from parity or a well regulated formula class of racing.

The labelling of categories as pure racing or artificial also makes me smile because almost everything about car racing is artificial. The cars, the circuit, the distance, etc. It's all a matter of degrees so taking tribal positions and drawing hard lines is the practice of fools. Just accept other people may have a different opinion and if it is not something you can embrace, put forward a reasoned argument to debate the subject or move on/start a new thread to debate subjects of interest.

For example I don’t care for drifting but I don’t create or hang in threads sniping at their sport.

As I said previously a CEO saying their company is the best is not unusual and everyone knows it’s just his opinion, not fact.

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Hang on - there is a sport somewhere isn't there? V8SC talk about the 'sport' all the time but you are suggesting they are only referring to their business?

When V8SC promote 50 years of Bathurst or 40 years of the ATCC aren't they drawing off the history and previous work of the sport?

And you ask "why should they give back"

Where would V8SC be without Australian Motorsport or the "smaller businesses" are you so eloquently put it?

Not buying GTRs attempt at justification either - totally misses the point

All I read here was whinge whinge whinge

[one five five]

Originally Posted by FAS33

Australian Motor racing has been a circus act since the 70's.

You got the "7" part right

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by Matt

Why would anything need to be put back into the grassroots community?

It's a business, you don't see other businesses "putting back" into the smaller ones.

I suppose it is a business like other "sporting" codes, that they (V8SC) like to compare themselves with, here in Australia. Warburton likes to drag out any ratings successes they have over the opposition sports, and bang on about their position in the Australian sporting landscape.
The Australian Football League, The National Rugby League, Cricket Australia being our top sporting codes, are all run as successful business enterprises, but pride themselves on how much they plow back into junior development, which in turn keeps the juggernaut turning over with new players. As I previously said, I'll stand corrected if V8SC's do something similar.
Just about all of our sporting codes here in Australia like to give something back to their grassroots communities, in one way or another.

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by one five five

You got the "7" part right

1970's to be specific. It was a circus act back in Peter Brock's days.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

I suppose it is a business like other "sporting" codes, that they (V8SC) like to compare themselves with, here in Australia. Warburton likes to drag out any ratings successes they have over the opposition sports, and bang on about their position in the Australian sporting landscape.
The Australian Football League, The National Rugby League, Cricket Australia being our top sporting codes, are all run as successful business enterprises, but pride themselves on how much they plow back into junior development, which in turn keeps the juggernaut turning over with new players. As I previously said, I'll stand corrected if V8SC's do something similar.
Just about all of our sporting codes here in Australia like to give something back to their grassroots communities, in one way or another.

The models are different though - for both cricket and AFL, the governing body (or a section of it anyway) run the elite competitions therefore their model would need CAMS to be fully running & retaining the profits from VASC to compare apples with apples.

In the case of the NRL, the junior development programs are (I believe) largely funded by the ARL although a fair chunk of the ARL's revenue is fees paid to it by the NRL. The NRL does administer those programs on behalf of the ARL though, same as it runs the State of Origin games on behalf of the ARL.

In all three cases, the teams taking part are in fact clubs so they also have their own junior development programs and of course in many cases their own social club income generators to fund those programs.

In the case of VASC, they pay CAMS a considerable fee each year which clearly assists CAMS do the things it does as the fee adds to CAMS revenue streams. VASC used to run an extensive schools visiting program but that had to stop when alcohol sponsorship came on board. Then there are things like the timing system developed with Natsoft for VASC that gives lower levels of motorsport a good and useable system plus lower levels benefit from better facilities when VASC get them up and running with tracks. What there is beyond that I honestly don't know but I know that VASC drivers have done quite a bit of coaching work in the Kart world and in fact did most of the evaluation testing for Kart control tyres.

Supports pay a fee to run with VASC but that fee is less than they'd pay to run their own events and organise their own TV coverage so I guess that's a benefit and as the highest public profile motorsport we have here, VASC keeps the sport in people's consciousness - which no doubt would provide some assistance to lower level racers looking for commercial support.

That's about all I can think of off the top of my head but I'm not sure where the expectation lies in "giving back" and how much people expect the organisation should do for it to be considered sufficient.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by FAS33

Australian Motor racing has been a circus act since the 70's.

Originally Posted by one five five

You got the "7" part right

Although the word 'Australian is superfluous. FIA have a LOT to answer for. Apparently in F1 it's now illegal to try to overtake. Won't take long for that to filter down...

Going back to the original title, some of the Caterham club series up here show everyone how racing should be done. Loads more power than they can handle, aerodynamics of a brick gives the advantage to the following car, and drivers who feel a little vulnerable so generally try to give just enough racing room. I've seen some amazing multi-car battles with frequent place changes and no damage incurred, and a bunch of drivers who get out smiling and clapping each other on the back. Does it make it to the TV? Nope. So few people know about it. Some influential people really ought to take a look at it, though.

[velly4]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

There are somewhere around 600 people working full time in the Virgin series, plus the Dunlop series and others. These roles would largely not have been in place to that extent in the Group A era, or the Group C era, and indeed are not prevalent in the GT3 category either.

There is plenty being put back..

Put back to where? Fat cats pockets? The sport has become an exclusive boys club where no one else can bring their toys to play. The money stays within a tight circle and doesn't filter down like it should.

Very unfair to compare it to Group A & C when the sport was just a sport. Most NRL players had 2nd jobs during those eras too.

So Tony Quinn doesn't employ anyone to run and facilitate his series?

So how much does Supercars pay circuit owners for the privilege of using their facilities? Do they compensate them for wear and tear?

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by velly4

So how much does Supercars pay circuit owners for the privilege of using their facilities? Do they compensate them for wear and tear?

As VASC promote many of the events, they do in fact hire the track from the circuit owners - how much they pay is clearly a commercial agreement between the parties.

At those tracks where the circuit owner still promotes the event, a fee is paid to VASC to bring the event and the promoter generates revenue from promoting the event and bringing a crowd - again, how much is made (or not) would only be known by the parties concerned.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by velly4

Put back to where? Fat cats pockets? The sport has become an exclusive boys club where no one else can bring their toys to play. The money stays within a tight circle and doesn't filter down like it should.

Very unfair to compare it to Group A & C when the sport was just a sport. Most NRL players had 2nd jobs during those eras too.

So Tony Quinn doesn't employ anyone to run and facilitate his series?

So how much does Supercars pay circuit owners for the privilege of using their facilities? Do they compensate them for wear and tear?

The green eyed monster, and not Mr Lowndes' 00 Falcon, appears to be alive and well...

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

The green eyed monster, and not Mr Lowndes' 00 Falcon, appears to be alive and well...

Yeah... Group A was a sport, unless you had last year's car, in which case it wasn't a sport at all. And anybody could race, as long as they had big money for the current car that smashed all the others...