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Old 23 Feb 2006, 18:18 (Ref:1530002)   #26
John Turner
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Yes, some good choices there. I'd (temporarily!) forgotten about Hungary '89. Very fine drive from 12th on the grid if I remember correctly, by Mansell, who I reckon was probably one of the best overtakers of all time.
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Old 25 Feb 2006, 18:51 (Ref:1531456)   #27
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i liked the monaco 84 gp . dunno if it should belong to this list but it was quite amazing how senna and bellof,who came from the back of the grid, hunted prost in the heavy rain. after 30 laps or similar the race got stopped and wasnt restarted at a point where prost got under heavy pressure from senna and bellof. bellof was even faster than senna and most probably would have got both senna and prost a bit later....
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Old 26 Feb 2006, 12:53 (Ref:1531868)   #28
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I love this thread, so much history being recalled and so much of it from the earliest days of the Championship. krt917 says he never rated Hawthorn as much as Fangio or Moss and it is true he never achieved the same level of success, but Mike could out drive anyone on his day. Mike drove more with his heart than his head and was a true 'racing driver' who just loved racing. Dundrod in 1955 was an epic drive in a D-Type around those twisiting, narrow roads with a solid rear axle (do get the video) and he out drove Fangio at Le Mans that same year.
Steve Wilkinson mentions Pedro Rodriguez at Spa in 1970. Did you know Steve that up until 2004 that was the second fastest Grand Prix ever (current F! champs) behind Peter Gethins 1971 victory at Monza? In fact as far as I can ascertain it is still the fifth fastest ever. Good old BRM.
A personal favourite race was the 1956 British Grand Prix. Hawthorn and Brooks in the BRM's lead away from the start and held of Fangio's Lancia Ferrari for many laps, Fangio passed Brooks but then spun at Becketts (I was there). Moss Challenged in the 250F and Roy Salvadori in Sid Greene's private entry got up to third place before a loose bonnet strap caused a pit stop. Collins/Portago took second ahead of Jean Behra with Jack Fairman in the Connaught fourth and Horace Gould fifth in his private Maserati. Certainly one of the most interesting races I have ever seen.

No matter how fast today's races are they can not generate the level of excitement that good old fashioned overtaking used to do, mind you Schumacher in Spain '96 was pretty gripping.

Keep the memories coming and drag this thread out.
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Old 26 Feb 2006, 14:17 (Ref:1531890)   #29
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It's always difficult to rank Hawthorn, as you say, Bob. On a good day he was inspirational, but he never seemed to maintain that high level race after race in the same way that Moss or Fangio could. Peter Collins was another like that; brilliant one day, lacklustre the next. However, your wonderful memory of 1956 Silverstone triggered a thought about the GP there, two years later. Collins wasn't even on the front row but was leading at the end of lap 1 and was still there 75 laps later when the chequered flag fell. In a peerless drive, he led his team mate, Hawthorn, in a Dino 246 one/two across the line by something like 24 seconds. Not in itself one of the greatest Grand Prix, but one of Collins very finest drives.

I'm not too critical of the modern F1 game; we did see quite a bit of (on track) overtaking last year but the dlfference is that these days the overtaken driver is rarely able to respond to get his place back and usually drops away, whereas in earlier times, a placed gained was not necessarily a place retained! Of course, Nigel Roebuck maintains that there never was much overtaking in F1, but I guess that is all relative!
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Old 26 Feb 2006, 18:01 (Ref:1531960)   #30
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Alan Raine should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridAlan Raine should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridAlan Raine should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridAlan Raine should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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i liked the monaco 84 gp . dunno if it should belong to this list but it was quite amazing how senna and bellof,who came from the back of the grid, hunted prost in the heavy rain. after 30 laps or similar the race got stopped and wasnt restarted at a point where prost got under heavy pressure from senna and bellof. bellof was even faster than senna and most probably would have got both senna and prost a bit later....
One of Prosts luckier wins. I sometimes wonder what Stefan Bellof would have acheived if he had lived. A real talent and racer.

Last edited by chunterer; 26 Feb 2006 at 18:34. Reason: Or even incorrectly spelt Christian name!! Anyway you know what i mean!!
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Old 26 Feb 2006, 18:42 (Ref:1531975)   #31
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Bellof almost certainly would have joined those two as one of the top 5 or 6 drivers throughout the remainder of the 80's and into the 90's.

But then we don't know what he would've done given top line equipment - i refer you to the many cases of when drivers with potential flop when they get the big chance. I suspect Mr Bellof wouldn't have had a problem though he was quite fearless and had ability to spare.

Yes Monaco '84 was a good race even Mansell could've won if he'd kept away from those white lines!!

Tell you another brilliant race, whilst it lasted was Rio '82. Messrs Gilles, Keijo and Nelson went at it hammer and tongs for the first 20-30 laps until ego's got involved and people didn't pit when they should've for fresh rubber, leading to sharp exits stage left for Gilles (or may have been right?!) otherwise the scrap would've gone all the way!

Marvellous stuff!

Is JYS' subliminal Nurburgring rain drive on the list? can't remember the year....
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Old 26 Feb 2006, 18:52 (Ref:1531979)   #32
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Alan Raine should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridAlan Raine should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridAlan Raine should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridAlan Raine should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Bellof almost certainly would have joined those two as one of the top 5 or 6 drivers throughout the remainder of the 80's and into the 90's.

But then we don't know what he would've done given top line equipment - i refer you to the many cases of when drivers with potential flop when they get the big chance. I suspect Mr Bellof wouldn't have had a problem though he was quite fearless and had ability to spare.
Absolutely!!
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Old 26 Feb 2006, 18:58 (Ref:1531982)   #33
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I think the trouble with Bellof, though, was that he just didn't know when not to push too hard. He was simply too fast for his own good (ask Derek Bell amongst others). You can't drive as close to the edge as he did virtually all the time without the tragic consequences that eventually caught him out. Rather unusually, I find myself disagreeing with Alan about Monaco, since had Bellof caught Senna, I think the likelihood was that you had the irrestible force meeting the immovable object, taking each other off, so Prost would still have won!

Yes, chunterer, the Stewart victory at the wet Nurburgring was in 1968 and is placed at 17th in the list.
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Old 26 Feb 2006, 19:39 (Ref:1532001)   #34
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robert77 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridrobert77 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I think any GP from the 50's or 60's when men drove real racing cars.
No fancy gizmo's n gagets to "control" the cars. Real racing in my opinion.
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Old 1 Mar 2006, 13:26 (Ref:1533928)   #35
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GP racing in the '50s and '60s was certainly more of a pure driving challenge (as opposed to the technical elements which modern drivers now have to cope with), but remember that the racing wasn't always close. For example, Moss's win at Pescara in '57 was a great drive on a real road circuit, but it wasn't a great race in terms of a fight (hence, I would have one list for great drives and one for great races!). He beat Fangio by almost 4 minutes...

I was glad to see Hungary '89 mentioned. It was a great race, both in terms of it including a great drive (Mansell's greatest?) and overtaking/close racing.
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