Old Vs New In Rallycross

[chunder]

Y'see that says very little to me the fact that really old cars could still compete!

It just means very little progress has been made.

GpB cars were quick because they were powerful and light, modern supercars are neither. they are underpowered, over torqued and rather heavy! And very, very expensive, whereas in the old says, parts for GpB cars were easier to find as they were all banned and they were not massively expensive to buy as they had already been developed enough. Ok theyw ere not cheap, but not like they are now.

And we all know Supermod is struggling, Newbould and Bardy moved it on from Escorts, then Evans and Bellerby moved it further, I don't think it has done much since.

While I loved the GpB cars, the retto thing is about giving some old cars a chance to race again without really having to push too hard, a lot of it is staged, but this isn't a problem now, when the classes are fuller, we might be having the same issues as we have now, loads of classes and not enough cars.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by chunder

And we all know Supermod is struggling, Newbould and Bardy moved it on from Escorts, then Evans and Bellerby moved it further, I don't think it has done much since.

Do we need it to 'move on'? Surely as long as the class is healthy in terms of numbers and the racing is good then that's enough? The push for ever faster cars is partly what's killing the class surely? The Evans Micra just blew everything out of the water by having money thrown at it - if you wanted to compete you had to spend. Normally you're raging against that sort of car (and the Lotus) but now you're advocating that as the way things should be?

Originally Posted by chunder

While I loved the GpB cars, the retto thing is about giving some old cars a chance to race again without really having to push too hard, a lot of it is staged,

Not sure how staged it is - Tommy Graham must have more money than sense if his Lydden crash was part of the plan

[USRallycross]

The one retro race I did this year wasn't staged - and that included having Marc Griffin upside down in front of me! I do think Rob is under Shirley's orders but don't seem any harm in that until a few more of us have 6R4's to give him some competition.


Mark

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by chunder

Y'see that says very little to me the fact that really old cars could still compete!

It just means very little progress has been made.

GpB cars were quick because they were powerful and light, modern supercars are neither.

Without meaning to move too far off topic I have to say I disagree with this.

I await to be corrected by those with more technical know-how than me, but the above statement strikes me as much like those from the rally fans who mourn the days of the "faster Group B rally cars". Modern transmission, suspension and braking mean that the modern cars are quicker (having said that, I know which ones are more entertaining to watch. )

Proof is in the video I posted earlier: an unrestricted RS200 struggles to keep up with modern Supercars, despite its power advantage. Consider as well the last few competitive Group B cars running in rallycross. I don't know much about Gibson's 6R4, but I know the Doran RS200 was a long way from its original specification.

As for the Retro Rallycross Challenge their first few outings did seem a touch processional, but the last couple of times I've seen them out have seemed like proper racing, a point proven by Tommy Graham really. As USrallycross says though, I do think that Gibson is perhaps taking it easy!

Speaking of Tommy Graham, he promised his return later this year: I wonder if he'll be at Croft?

[chunder]

Tommy simply made a mistake and maybe an error trying to pass somewhere he would not normaly, no one passes through the chicane at Lydden, it doesn' really prove he was driving at 100% though I am sure he was, just that he made a mistake. Having a crash like that is unfortunate, but I am not sure it shows anything more than that sadly.

Bert cmon, I was not advocating anything, merely pointing out what happened in that class, it is struggling so much now. I was pointing out the development of the class and that it has stagnated.

As for GpB, Cesare Fiorio took a well known reporter aside during the 86 Sanremo rally and told him the GpA HF 4wd was already faster through their test stage than the 037, so yes some of you are right tech always improves the breed.

But the simple facts are that an RS200 weighs about 1000 kg, and in it's heyday was producuing nearly 700 hp

A DS3 weighs maybe 1200 kilos and produces about 550, with huge torque. Any difference in laptime and speed is purely down to the driver and the setup of the car, as if you put one bloke in a hybrid car with Gpb power and weight, and then in the same car with Supercar power and weight he would likely be quicker in the GpB one. As it has more power and less weight, it's simple math.

ALS, Suspension, tyres, brakes, fuel have all come on so much its hard to compare. Lawrence was still able to compete and he was about the best example of a guy at the top his game against the modern cars. And also remember for many years in the UK Supercars didnt run restrictors! And that Metro could have been time travelled into 1990 really.

Last time Pat really seriously ran the RS he won the series (ignore the otehr people that ran it sadly they were not up to it). But it was so hard to keep running. He was beaten by newer diffs, gearboxes, engine tech and suspension, not power to weight.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by chunder

Bert cmon, I was not advocating anything, merely pointing out what happened in that class, it is struggling so much now. I was pointing out the development of the class and that it has stagnated.

Development has slowed certainly but is that a bad thing? If the extreme cars are taken out and development slows it should in theory make the class more competitive and open to more cars / drivers. Development costs money and at the moment money is in short supply for many people so development rates have slowed.

Originally Posted by chunder

Last time Pat really seriously ran the RS he won the series (ignore the otehr people that ran it sadly they were not up to it). But it was so hard to keep running. He was beaten by newer diffs, gearboxes, engine tech and suspension, not power to weight.

I thought the RS200 had been upgraded - it was certainly running the latest engine technology, the suspension was all new too (the article on the car in Performance Ford certainly gave the impression that the car was effectively 'all new'). Realistically there's no reason why that car shouldn't still be competitive - it's a loss to the sport that it's not out there competing. The RS200 and Gibsons 6R4 were reason enough to go to a rallycross meeting.

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I thought the RS200 had been upgraded - it was certainly running the latest engine technology, the suspension was all new too (the article on the car in Performance Ford certainly gave the impression that the car was effectively 'all new').

If I recall correctly both the front and rear tub were chopped on "Rosie" weren't they? So that RS200 was partially spaceframe. Plus, as you say, the suspension mounting points were different (and the original double shocks had been replaced for a single shock, hadn't they?). There was a lot of modern technology on/in that RS200, so I daresay its not an entirely fair comparison.

Originally Posted by Chunder

But the simple facts are that an RS200 weighs about 1000 kg, and in it's heyday was producuing nearly 700 hp

True but, again referring to the rally comparison, look at the Group B rally cars, versus the Group A/WRCars. In fact consider the current crop of WRCars. Even smaller engines, supposedly lower power figures and still the cars continue to break stage records. Its true that the older cars had a high power/weight ratio but, like the example you gave, the modern cars are putting less power down far more efficiently.

Originally Posted by Chunder

Any difference in laptime and speed is purely down to the driver and the setup of the car, as if you put one bloke in a hybrid car with Gpb power and weight, and then in the same car with Supercar power and weight he would likely be quicker in the GpB one. As it has more power and less weight, it's simple math.

As I said earlier, check the video I posted. A component driver, in an unrestricted RS200 running period suspension and brakes and the more modern cars beat him.

Put some of that new technology in the Group B car and I'm certain it would be faster, but then thats no longer a direct comparison of old and new, is it?

Originally Posted by BertMk2

it's a loss to the sport that it's not out there competing

Fully agreed! As I have said in the past I'm a huge fan of the modern machinery, but those two Group B cars are out there*, its such a shame that we aren't seeing them on track.


* Possibly. Last I heard "Rosie" had been robbed of a lot of bits for the Pikes Peak RS200?

[leonidas]

It would be interesting to know how far development has slowed. Has anyone thought to compare lap times from the Group B era with today? Was 'Rosie' all that much quicker than Group Bs ten years earlier? Anyone keep the stats?

The really big leaps forward in rallycross development have alway really been advances made by major rally teams that rallycross picked up on (early 80s 4wd and late 80s Group B). Most of the engine and suspension technology has come from the big works rally teams copied over into rallycross. Have there ever been many rallycross set-ups that have had the cash to do a lot of meaningful independent development? Its mainly been people who have had access to the parts bins of WRC development programmes or built up the knowledge through similar motorsport experience with the big professional teams.

[USRallycross]

Can I ask the question of budget that Chunder bought up in an earlier post.

What did a 6R4 cost in the mid/late 80's - not the original fire sale from BL but after people realized that they had a future in rallycross? Same for the RS200 although I don't believe that as many of those were built?

I loved the Group B era and local drivers (to me) such as Barry and Graham Hathaway could afford to run them and I always saw them as 'regular' guys who put everything into their racing. I just wonder if the same income/commitment could fund a new OMSE Fiesta or Hansen DS3, etc.

The running costs of the OMSE Fiesta's were not small! I think the one event at Lydden for David cost more than his whole season with the Mk6 - actually probably a little more! Obviously a like for like comparison because of travel, testing, etc but the cost per event was alot.

Did Group B make it that much easier to compete on a relatively level playing field or do I have rose tinted glasses?


Mark

[chunder]

I would suggest that the initial outlay for the car was fairly low.

Nilsson, Nordstrom, Rantanen, Schanche and Holm all turned up at the GP in 86 wth money to buy RFS200's with Evo engines didnt they?

I cant imagine any of those cars were hundreds of thousands!

But the development is a hidden cost, the 205 was still mainly all done by Peugeot I expect! But John Minty, Jeff Page, Hart, all got invovled with RS200's as dod Goodmans and a few others ith the V64V

I cant imagine this development was cheap, but it wasnt spent when buying the car so you could maybe spread it over a few years.

Martin had two or three RS200 engine specs just as he did with the Escort he built, but that's MArtin, I cant imagine Jean Luc and Kenny changed spec a huge amount with major things like bore and stroke as Martin did.

Running costs were surely high? But parts maybe werent until they started running out?

I can rememebr seeing clubmans spec Metro's in MN for under 20 grand in the 90's.

Against far mroe for a GpA Escort. And when you think a full spec GpN Evo costs more than a 10 gradn these days....

[leonidas]

I remember reading BL wanted to sell the 6R4 road car (in 250bhp spec) at £40k but many ended up going for a lot less than half that. The later clubman 300s were sold for £16k. Insanely cheap in retrospect.

But you would have had to spend a lot more to match Gollop's 6R4 - built by a guy (called Ken Humphries?) who worked for Austin Rover, and presumably with unofficial works support. I remember hearing rumours about silly money being spent on the transmission development as there was no off the shelf solution.

[bigdick1977]

Engine was built by Cliff Humphries and the transmission designed by Will and built by Xtrac I believe.

[rs 200]

I know tracks have changed a little but look at the old lap records of tracks the old stuff still beats the new crap
Fastest time ever ridden: 2 min 32.821 sec.

over 4 ronden (1995) door Martin Schanche (N) met Ford Escort RS 2000.

about 4 laps (1995) by Martin Schanche (N) Ford Escort RS 2000.eurocircuit
lydden hill

• Martin Schanche (N), (Ford RS200 E2) drove 3 ½ laps (1 lap = 1.400 km) in 2:28.8 Minutes during the 1990 FIA ERC round
• and I am sure when track was same the mk 6 fir=fiestas were doing 2.42 rings a bell

and this was 20 years ago .and I am sure there is more lap records out there
old cars, fast ,noise ,drivers with car control, spectacle to watch
new cars ,quiet, drive on rails ,boring, and I think driving is so much more easy ,and cars more forgiving to drivers .and they use the handbrake
I would watch rwd or old stuff over new rubbish any day .

[Hickey]

I think that Andy Jordan got very close in that focus, maybe a 2m 30s, I remember the commentator getting excited. And I'd say cars have moved on since. The track changed soon after then went to full laps instead of half, introduced the joker, extended the dirt down the dover slope etc, so can't compare now.

Lawrence Gibson was slowly getting less competitive in the 6r4 too. But damn do I miss that car!

[WJM]

It also depends on the state of the gravel sections. There were years at Lydden that the gravel sections were so bad that even in a straight you couldn't go full throttle on them without breaking your suspension.

These days they call the gravel 'dirt', and that is exactly what it is, tarmac with some dirt shovelled on it. The cars are so low and stiff they could almost be mistaken for the BTCC.

[chunder]

I wouldn't say the dirt at Lydden has ever been that bad!

Watch the 87 ERC round and you will see simply beautiful shale, it is flat, grippy and superb. It has been a bit bumpy in the past at Chessons, but I don't think the dirt has ever been that bad there.

Croft was terrible the odd time, especially when they first went to the new layout, the bumps were terrible!!

I watched some of the Swedish event at the weekend, yknow whole turns on shale, transition sections, proper rallycross, not racing on broken tarmac which is now what is sold to us as rallycross.

Also, the modern tyres break it up too much with treads, whereas in the past you had lightly cut clicks in the dry or total slicks that didnt cut it up as much. Hence you get a lot of grip on the dirt and it gets kicked off line more.

Chessons now is a total joke.

[GOLDFINGER]

Wasnt Rennisons RS200 'standard' ? remember him shadowing Mr rallycross at Lydden euro round one year, it didnt have all the inboard front shocks & different stroke engine did it ?
I never thought of Pat as being in the same league as

[chunder]

Rennys car was developed by his team I would expect, he had very good engines from Brian Hart eventually and was also trying various aero stuff. I doubt he was ever short of cash for tyres and parts also.
Pat had his car Schancified I'm 1992 between holland and Norway and it was miles better after that.

[GOLDFINGER]

[QUOTE=chunder;3317157]Rennys car was developed by his team I would expect, he had very good engines from Brian Hart eventually and was also trying various aero stuff. I doubt he was ever short of cash for tyres and parts also.

He was also in my opinion our (the) best driver around at that time

[Pinto]

A very smooth driver was Renny I remember watching him as a kid going round croft barely moving the steering wheel almost in a complete drift around the whole track. A lad I use to work with did all the bodywork on it at DSRM he was very good with Kevlar and carbon and I guess that's why the DSRM team had such light cars!

[chunder]

Was all a little odd how that all ended up, hero to zero stuff.

Strange that Mark never came back really, I bet anyone with a bit of cash around at the time would have jumped at the chance to have him as a driver. Imagine what he would have been able to manage with decent backing in a car better sorted as the RS200 was later on.

He was getting close at some tracks even in 87, and in 88 was learning, regular A Final appearances and a little unlucky not win more rounds in 88 as the car was certainly quick.

But to be fair, was rarely Martin's equal when they came together, anyone who saw those two rounds at Lydden would see Martin's mastery even in a car he didn't like that much, though Mark was often a shade quicker and certainly neater.

I rated Steve Palmer up there with Mark too, he was able to do things in a Metro that only Will could match, his lines at Lydden in wet and dry were just a fluid motion of car control and 4 wheel drifts, was a superb driver who never quite managed to crack Europe, despite being right there for a while. Maybe never managed to get that one great result sadly.

Always thought a full campaign with the 3.8 wuld have resulted in a win or two, but he still managed top 5s and 4's.

[tbtstt]

Forgive the thread bump, but spotted a picture that I thought was kind of relevant on Facebook. From the LD Motorsport page:



Interesting to see just how little of "Rosie" there is with all the panels off.

The picture was posted with the comment:

Originally Posted by LD Motorsport Facebook

What do we have here? One is for Rallycross and one is for PikesPeak!

Perhaps wishful thinking, but I hope that means "Rosie" will be back on track in 2014; maybe as part of the Retro Rallycross Challenge?

[rs 200]

If rossie comes back ,put it back to the old days where they sounded proper revving to 9k with no restrictors and flames out the back

[Schanche1965]

£13,000 would by you a brand new Metro 6R4 at one time.

[rx-guru]

Originally Posted by Schanche1965

£13,000 would by you a brand new Metro 6R4 at one time.

Can confirm that, was offered a brand-new Clubman 6R4 for £13,500 back then – but refused.