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Old 21 Jan 2018, 04:25 (Ref:3794083)   #201
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Not wishing to be pedantic but I think you might be confusing Team principals.
Franz Tost is the top man at Toro Rosso.
Gunther (Steiner) is team boss at Haas F1.
Oops! Crossed wire. Good Point!
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Old 31 Jan 2018, 11:35 (Ref:3797136)   #202
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Taken from sky sports news:

“Red Bull chief Helmut Marko has launched a staunch defence of Honda, insisting Fernando Alonso did everything to "make the engine look bad".

Alonso lamented the Japanese engine suppliers' performance throughout McLaren's plagued three-year partnership, and is now looking forward to Renault power in 2018.

But after Honda moved across to Toro Rosso, Marko is optimistic about the Red Bull junior team's season.

"Honda is very active and has already found something," the Red Bull advisor told Auto Motor und Sport. "Maybe they manage to be on the level of Renault with the second engine.

"Honda had to compromise on the McLaren chassis specification. They could not develop freely and were pretty limited. Alonso has done everything to make the engine look bad.”

I’m really hoping that this comes good. I think as per the article above, McLaren were far to restrictive with the chassis design and wouldn’t allow Honda the room they needed
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Old 31 Jan 2018, 11:46 (Ref:3797138)   #203
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"Honda had to compromise on the McLaren chassis specification. They could not develop freely and were pretty limited. Alonso has done everything to make the engine look bad.”

I’m really hoping that this comes good. I think as per the article above, McLaren were far to restrictive with the chassis design and wouldn’t allow Honda the room they needed
Ring any bells?

Certainly reminds me of what was said about the initial/ongoing problems that Red Bull Racing had with the Renault unit in the first and second years of the new PUs.

As to the comment about Alonso, he is a racing driver who wants to win races. He was embarrassed by the equipment that was supplied by Honda, and wasn't reticent about voicing his opinion. As is said, 'You can't polish a turd'.
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Old 31 Jan 2018, 15:09 (Ref:3797179)   #204
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Exactly, he’s not one for towing the PR line, he was saying it how it was. Honda were an embarrassment last season
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Old 31 Jan 2018, 21:35 (Ref:3797288)   #205
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Exactly, he’s not one for towing the PR line, he was saying it how it was. Honda were an embarrassment last season
McLaren was embarrassment cause they are the running team. Blaming Honda was nothing but finger pointing trying to protect the brand. Both Honda and McLaren were so intervened in car development that it's not as simple as yelling on the radio how engine lacks power yet at the same time you cut off 15km/h of top speed to try to promote your chassis. Honda didn't just develop the engine and said here you go stuck in into your car. As a matter of fact it was vice versa, McLaren had engine design in mind and they just hired Honda to make it into reality. And it all went to crap.

Spiting on Honda publicly while they pay for your biggest salary on the grid is a ***** move. I hope Honda was smart to have a contractual obligation which would take off from his salary whenever he made public slur.
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Old 31 Jan 2018, 23:05 (Ref:3797304)   #206
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The fact that the McLaren went well on slower tracks says all you need to know about the Honda engine. The fact is last season’s McLaren was a good chassis, but at least at the beginning it only went well at circuits where power didn’t matter quite so much
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Old 31 Jan 2018, 23:51 (Ref:3797312)   #207
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Let’s see. I am far from convinced that the McLaren chassis is good, and that perhaps they did everything to make it look like it was all Honda in a vain attempt to sign a title sponsor for this year. The title sponsor they now say they never wanted having failed to sign one of course...
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Old 1 Feb 2018, 07:57 (Ref:3797372)   #208
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We'll find out the truth come March. If McLaren is not up there RB and Ferrari, then it wasn't just the engine. If Toro Rosso is suddenly inside the top 10, then the Honda is pretty decent!
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Old 1 Feb 2018, 11:44 (Ref:3797416)   #209
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We'll find out the truth come March. If McLaren is not up there RB and Ferrari, then it wasn't just the engine. If Toro Rosso is suddenly inside the top 10, then the Honda is pretty decent!
The problem with that logic is that you've got no way of judging how good last years chassis was based on the performance of this years chassis - it'll be a completely different design. So last years may have been brilliant then this year they could have gone down the wrong route and come up with a pig of a car.

The general consensus in all coverage (TV, print, online) seemed to be that the chassis was the strong point of the package and the engine the weak point. Exactly how good the chassis was and how bad the engine was we'll never know for sure (and until there's more than one team running the Honda it'll be hard to judge).
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Old 1 Feb 2018, 13:09 (Ref:3797446)   #210
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And it wasn’t McLaren’s fault the Honda kept failing
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Old 1 Feb 2018, 17:21 (Ref:3797494)   #211
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Good performance on slow tracks could also be attributed to good low RPM power delivery. Maybe Honda didn't have the top end but it did deliver when exiting turns and building up speed. We will never know.
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Old 2 Feb 2018, 08:03 (Ref:3797671)   #212
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Good performance on slow tracks could also be attributed to good low RPM power delivery. Maybe Honda didn't have the top end but it did deliver when exiting turns and building up speed. We will never know.
Don't worry about knowing, speculation & supposition are what fuels the forums!
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Old 15 Feb 2018, 16:55 (Ref:3801609)   #213
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So Torro Rosso is just like a few others in that they have started to drop some info such as this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKI32W4yJTQ

A few points. Note, they say RA618H. This is the designation for the 2018 Honda engine and not the 2017 engine. Between TR saying they have mated and test fired the 2018 engine with the 2018 chassis and reports elsewhere that testing by Honda on the 2018 engine are going well, I think this mostly puts to bed the potential for TR starting the season with the 2017 engine.

Of course, lets see how things go in pre-season testing!

Given each driver is limited to three ICE per season now, there will be limited opportunities to introduce significant improvements during the season. I am reading elsewhere that they have a planned mid-season upgrade that is expected to be a significant change, but also something they are testing right now. So it sounds like the early 2018 spec is mostly set and they are working on a mid season spec. Also it looks like the launch spec is not identical to, but based upon the unraced "spec 4" concept from last season (no reason to ignore other improvements that may not have been in last years spec 4).

Saying this sounds like this is another full re-engineering of the engine. No, this all is supposed to be evolutions of the base 2017 design. I expect much work was focused on combustion as well as MGU-H (particularly reliability).

Oh! And the photos are of the 2017 engine. They are not showing the 2018 engine on purpose (as many details can be gleaned from just the exterior). Honda did however release some interesting info in the Japanese press around the 2017 engine awhile back. They are probably more open than any other manufacture at the moment.

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Old 25 Mar 2018, 10:06 (Ref:3810621)   #214
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More of the same for Honda in 2018. Just got different paint on the car.

Three engines for the year is going to hurt.
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Old 25 Mar 2018, 20:08 (Ref:3810713)   #215
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Two engines per race will hurt even more...
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Old 26 Mar 2018, 01:12 (Ref:3810776)   #216
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what they need is shorter races (and better drivers)

then making the engine stronger would really be the only major thing left on the to-do list
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Old 26 Mar 2018, 17:26 (Ref:3811002)   #217
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So I have read (details on the web before first race, so this is not a retcon of the facts) that Honda and TR agreed to focus first on reliability and then performance. That the engine they started with this year is NOT last years engine, but an evolution AND that performance may be about the same as when they ended last year.

That it may be mid-season (a long way off!) before we see the version that is expected to show significantly more performance. I would assume the timing is based upon the lifespan of the first engines as well as completion of testing that shows both reliability and power.

It is also my understanding that the current engine also is using the basic MGU-H design and supplier as last year. I am sure it has improvements, but in general it is the same basic concept from the same supplier. McLaren Applied Technologies (MAT) who is the supplier for the standard ECU also supplied much of the hybrid system for the Honda engine. I don't know if the MGU-H is supplied by MAT or someone else. But I have read that Honda is expected to switch to a new in-house MGU-H mid-year. So this may indicate they are still using a MAT supplied MGU-H, or the MGU-H uses a number of components that are still supplied by MAT????

I believe the failure for Gasly was his MGU-H (which has been the weak point for Honda). There is evidence that riding the curbs was a factor in this (not saying this was the fault of Gasly). Look at this video and note that the two initial puffs of smoke come immediately after a good knock from the curb...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3JhR1qMh_8

Regardless of how many and who's fingers are in the pot, it is up to Honda to fix the MGU-H issue.

Hartley had a tire puncture which ended up damaging the underbody of the car, so it was never going to be able to maintain pace after that.

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Old 27 Mar 2018, 06:35 (Ref:3811152)   #218
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Just a general note/reminder: you are only limited to three engines if you want to avoid grid penalties. If your priority is to aggressively develop the engine, grid penalties are less of an issue.
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Old 27 Mar 2018, 07:12 (Ref:3811158)   #219
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Just a general note/reminder: you are only limited to three engines if you want to avoid grid penalties. If your priority is to aggressively develop the engine, grid penalties are less of an issue.
I have a feeling they will be very very aggressive on development and take ALOt if penalities this season to have a decent engine for Red Bull next season.

Toro Rosso at the end of the day will just be a test mule for the Snr team
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Old 27 Mar 2018, 08:23 (Ref:3811167)   #220
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I have a feeling they will be very very aggressive on development and take ALOt if penalities this season to have a decent engine for Red Bull next season.

Toro Rosso at the end of the day will just be a test mule for the Snr team
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Old 27 Mar 2018, 13:52 (Ref:3811251)   #221
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Lewis himself has admitted he is already driving with the new engine limit in mind. Doesn't surprise me that Honda are also focusing on more reliability at this stage
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Old 28 Mar 2018, 17:53 (Ref:3811559)   #222
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That limit of engines is absurd, since it does the contrary of the motive it was installed. Generates more costs to the team, not a cap.
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Old 28 Mar 2018, 18:14 (Ref:3811566)   #223
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Just a general note/reminder: you are only limited to three engines if you want to avoid grid penalties. If your priority is to aggressively develop the engine, grid penalties are less of an issue.
And if your chassis and drivers mean you are going to be near the back anyway...
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Old 28 Mar 2018, 19:21 (Ref:3811580)   #224
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And if your chassis and drivers mean you are going to be near the back anyway...
Exactly... So, develop the hell out of the engine this season, swallow every penalty thrown at you to ensure that everything will be fine for RBR Honda in 2019.
(It's funny how a Bull can become a sacrificial lamb!)
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Old 28 Mar 2018, 21:04 (Ref:3811601)   #225
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And if your chassis and drivers mean you are going to be near the back anyway...
Chassis i expect is good, as are most cars James Key is i/c of.
Drivers? Hardly the worst line up on the grid.
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