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Old 2 Dec 2010, 07:32 (Ref:2798455)   #1
Teretonga
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My Tracks- Teretonga

First track of the month...
Clockwise, 4.1km (2.548miles). Purple areas are car parks. Light green is spectator areas, (lots of room to roam). Dark green is elevated forested areas spectators can have access to.
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Old 2 Dec 2010, 09:58 (Ref:2798503)   #2
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Love it.

Ample overtaking opportunities, with many high/medium speed corners leading in to overtaking opportunities, which is a nice combination.

Especially like the infield section with a Pouhon like double left, leading down a small straight in to a hairpin right. I think this could be real, real exciting.

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Old 2 Dec 2010, 18:21 (Ref:2798725)   #3
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Drink

my kind of track!

like it a lot at first glance
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Old 2 Dec 2010, 20:11 (Ref:2798790)   #4
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Next one.
This is a long 4.2 mile track, (6.758 km) something in the American tradition of Elhart Lake, Watkins Glen, Mid Ohio (or Austin? Ha!) but a few more esses. Built in rolling country where the track follows elements of the natural terrain rather than being imposed on the landscape via lots of earthmoving. Direction is clockwise.

From the start straight you climb up through turn one and two then lead down hill to turn the double apex 3/4, back up to 5 and 6 is a downhill leading to the straight and 7 is a sweeper leading to a very hard left that drops off into a small valley, a little like the initial part of the Corkscrew. The long infield straight sweeps through a left hand that crests a brow then downhill onto the brakes for the right hander turn 10 and up hill steeply for another right that crests at the apex before leading you downhill into the 12/13 left/ up the hill to the right into the downhill straight before the hard braking left up at 14 leads you up hill into the double apexed top loop.
A series of swoopy rolling turns left, then right, left, right then tightening left and finally a tight right leading onto the start straight.
The shorter options are for alternative layouts but in all the track has four combinations. Basic, plus west loop, or plus north loop, or the full circuit.
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Old 2 Dec 2010, 22:04 (Ref:2798840)   #5
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I like both your tracks in a huge way!

Thge first one shiows how simplicity can rule. The second one, a true Tilke-style one (at least I think so), is a great one for the great ones - a ztrack where precision is essential.

Both thumbs up!

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Old 3 Dec 2010, 00:29 (Ref:2798900)   #6
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I like both your tracks in a huge way!

Thge first one shiows how simplicity can rule. The second one, a true Tilke-style one (at least I think so), is a great one for the great ones - a ztrack where precision is essential.

Both thumbs up!

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Thanks bio.
I appreciate your comment but in fact the second one is nothing like a Tilke track (in my mind).
When I picture it I picture Elkhart Lake or Watkins Glen, or in terms of terrain in a European circuit, Spa or Brands Hatch. It has elevation change like few Tilke circuits do, and scenery.

The run off and gravel traps in the diagram are concessions to the FIA, not Herman T.
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Old 3 Dec 2010, 03:42 (Ref:2798929)   #7
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Theretonga.in this last track I see many safety issues, there are many places where the run off areas a uhm.."shared" by racers coming from opposite ends, also very little run-off in many curves, the shape if the trak is beautiful but the planing part I have issues with
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Old 3 Dec 2010, 04:47 (Ref:2798934)   #8
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Theretonga.in this last track I see many safety issues, there are many places where the run off areas a uhm.."shared" by racers coming from opposite ends, also very little run-off in many curves, the shape if the trak is beautiful but the planing part I have issues with
Can you be specific?
It is clockwise.....I can show you heaps of circuits in real life a lot worse than this.... There is far more run off here, and gravel traps, hard areas etc than there is at Valencia, Korea, Laguna Seca, Suzuka, and ......Monaco.....!

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Old 3 Dec 2010, 10:55 (Ref:2799000)   #9
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I do like the basic layout of the last one as well as the west loop; definitely got that point-and-squirt nature of American tracks, plus the forest bit adds a bit of character. The first one looks damn good too, good show!

These are what Austin should have aspired to, not some strange looking Tilkedrome!
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Old 3 Dec 2010, 11:37 (Ref:2799026)   #10
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Luiggi,
where exactly do you see those "many" safety issues with the last track? The only possible source of problem I see is the second top left corner - it is really close to the corner south of it - but not too close I think.
And even if we count that as one - where all the others?

I'm really curious.

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Old 3 Dec 2010, 16:32 (Ref:2799158)   #11
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Well, going by a count of 22 corners, I'll take a stab at it and say that Luiggi is concerned with Turns 8, 9, 12, 14, and 19. I would guess that he also doesn't think that Turns 3 and 7 have enough run-off.
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Old 3 Dec 2010, 22:40 (Ref:2799304)   #12
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Well, going by a count of 22 corners, I'll take a stab at it and say that Luiggi is concerned with Turns 8, 9, 12, 14, and 19. I would guess that he also doesn't think that Turns 3 and 7 have enough run-off.
he said there would be racers coming from two directions into the same runoff area.

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Old 4 Dec 2010, 03:54 (Ref:2799364)   #13
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I need to have the distances marked before going any further
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Old 4 Dec 2010, 06:23 (Ref:2799385)   #14
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About what I thought. The runs into Turns 9 and 12 are pointed almost straight at each other. Going straight off at Turn 8 puts you very quickly into an incursion onto the straight between Turns 13 and 14. Turns 14 and 19 are across from one another, with cars going off at those two corners quite possibly having intersecting trajectories.

Luiggi has marked run-off at the exit of Turn 7 as an issue. The one surprise looks like his selection of the run-off at Turn 4 as opposed to Turn 3.

Luiggi, the vehicles will scrub off speed going through Turn 3, so I don't think they'll be approaching Turn 4 quite as fast as maybe you're thinking.
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Old 4 Dec 2010, 08:19 (Ref:2799410)   #15
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OK. As marked by Luiggi
Turn 1 The run off here is about twice what you would have on a similar corner at Monza.... and at least equal to that at the Curva de Valone
Turn 4 The run off is equivalent to Lesmos and the turn is actually much slower
Turn 8 here you don't have a concrete wall you have at the corckscrew laguna seca and its further in a straight line than you have in a similar situation at Brands Hatch where you turn onto the GP circuit. its a fair question, but thats a reasonable answer.

On the straight leading through the valley you would have 35 metres of run off before reaching a barrier. To climb up an embankment and plough through 60 metres of forest across another 40 metres of run off to reach the track at turn 14, or vice versa in the other direction....

After turn 15 at the end of that straight an option is to turn hard left to climb up a hill to the west loop. The braking is done in into that corner but the gravel trap is directly ahead. The optional cut through to the other side involves a rise and a turn off the line of the straight and 90 metres to reach the other side. cars on the other side are not running on a trajectory that would carry them into the other cars territory.

When I remarked that these were built in the tradition of Elkhart Lake and Watkins Glen I had pictures before me of the current run off of those circuits. I also had aerial photos of category B circuits recently completed at different places in the last two or three years and some aerial phots of our more epic traditional circuits like Monza, Ricard, Brands Hatch, Spa, Dijon, Montreal, Mosport, Ste Jovite, Interlagos, Rio de Janeiro etc

There is nothing in my design that is worse than any category B circuit currently in operation anywhere in the world. Thats why I was amused by the comment that it resembled a Tilkedrome.

Tilke doesn't build category B circuits..... I deliberately avoided designing something like the present new category A circuits because I don't like them. They're too sterile. Even traditional circuits up graded are heaps better. The new circuits (even the better ones like Aragon and Portimao) lack real road racing atmosphere so I dont draw anything like them.
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Old 4 Dec 2010, 12:57 (Ref:2799499)   #16
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About what I thought. The runs into Turns 9 and 12 are pointed almost straight at each other. Going straight off at Turn 8 puts you very quickly into an incursion onto the straight between Turns 13 and 14. Turns 14 and 19 are across from one another, with cars going off at those two corners quite possibly having intersecting trajectories.
Yep, those are definitely close proxemities - but, I believe, there's fences separating the two runoff areas, so cars or bikes won't meet. The fences, of course, leave rather small gravel pits fr the corners - too small even - but vehicles won't meet if there's fence between them.

Or is it only me thinking so?

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Old 4 Dec 2010, 16:20 (Ref:2799552)   #17
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The distances you mention are way too small, you say there's " a concrete wall" here and "a fence there" that's the very things we try very hard to avoid when designing a circuit, we don't want to need walls to hold vehicles into invading collision routes, all that danger and expense can be avoided if you simply lay down the track correctly. When you think "safety" you shall never assume the distances are required because vehicles are approaching X or Y turn slow or fast or medium fast, you do that for the moment when everything goes wrong and vehicles are expelled from the track at God only knows what speed and what trajectory. I never take old emblmatic circuits as a standard for safety, if you're comparing, go Quatar, Miller Motor sports, Mugello, Valencia,Aragon and the new generation circuits.

If you ask me, I still see your circuit too fast for the amount of close barriers and turn 8, 9/12 and the end of the straight later on are the perfect example of how to look for trouble, even Purist(!!!) call it like that too! So while I loved your first circuit I have to say the second one I don't like much because of the reasons I stated but that's only my opinion, and of course I could be wrong!

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Old 4 Dec 2010, 22:09 (Ref:2799682)   #18
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Yep, those are definitely close proxemities - but, I believe, there's fences separating the two runoff areas, so cars or bikes won't meet. The fences, of course, leave rather small gravel pits fr the corners - too small even - but vehicles won't meet if there's fence between them.

Or is it only me thinking so?

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I think you probably think like me. I could redo the whole thing to demonstrate why i think Luigispeed is wrong but probably wont.

I looked at the basic design of the run off in close up view and compared it with existing circuits that received homologation by the FIA and FIA requirements and it looks fine to me. I know what I intended to be there when I drew it..

I know of one category B circuit homologated last year that is lined with concrete and after visiting it I noticed several aspects that were potential fatality sports. One of them has already resulted in a fatality in testing.
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Old 4 Dec 2010, 22:14 (Ref:2799688)   #19
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The distances you mention are way too small, you say there's " a concrete wall" here and "a fence there" that's the very things we try very hard to avoid when designing a circuit, we don't want to need walls to hold vehicles into invading collision routes, all that danger and expense can be avoided if you simply lay down the track correctly. When you think "safety" you shall never assume the distances are required because vehicles are approaching X or Y turn slow or fast or medium fast, you do that for the moment when everything goes wrong and vehicles are expelled from the track at God only knows what speed and what trajectory. I never take old emblmatic circuits as a standard for safety, if you're comparing, go Quatar, Miller Motor sports, Mugello, Valencia,Aragon and the new generation circuits.

If you ask me, I still see your circuit too fast for the amount of close barriers and turn 8, 9/12 and the end of the straight later on are the perfect example of how to look for trouble, even Purist(!!!) call it like that too! So while I loved your first circuit I have to say the second one I don't like much because of the reasons I stated but that's only my opinion, and of course I could be wrong!
Thanks Luiggi...
If you did a close up of the area and looked at the distances I think you would get a better view. The grey line is the track surface at 15m wide continuously. This means considerable run off in most places, that run off may be sealed or grassed as appropriate. The yellow areas are gravel pits as appropriate and some are quite wide.
For example I don't rate Aragon that highly as a circuit so we would probably have a different opinion on that but thats fine. I appreciate your input.

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Old 4 Dec 2010, 22:20 (Ref:2799694)   #20
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Well, if there's one thing I never doubted here at My Tracks, it's Luiggi's experience...

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Old 4 Dec 2010, 23:16 (Ref:2799719)   #21
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Which Grade 2 circuit were you referring to as being hazardous, Teretonga?

I've been watching some of the action from a spectacular Grade 2 circuit homologated in 2008 that is largely lined in concrete barriers. Of course, Potrero de los Funes has the public ring road around a lake as its basis, so there are some definite limitations in place there.
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Old 4 Dec 2010, 23:19 (Ref:2799722)   #22
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Just as a concession to LuiggiSpeed's comments I have realigned some corners (and straights) and added runoff and sandpits for drivers to play in. Some of the more criticised 'distance' areas have been increased considerably.
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Old 5 Dec 2010, 02:56 (Ref:2799759)   #23
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Which Grade 2 circuit were you referring to as being hazardous, Teretonga?

I've been watching some of the action from a spectacular Grade 2 circuit homologated in 2008 that is largely lined in concrete barriers. Of course, Potrero de los Funes has the public ring road around a lake as its basis, so there are some definite limitations in place there.
I like Potero de los Funes but acknowledge that it wouldn't work for motorcyclists for example and a lot of the f1 community would have trouble with it. Even the GT championship drivers there this weekend have admitted that it was imtimidating but they loved driving on it. Peter Kox said he wonderd what sort of place he'd come to until he got in the car and drove it... and loved it.

I visited Hampton Downs in NZ in January for the Bruce McLaren Festival and noted the can Am cars were lifting and moving sideways as they came over the hump onto the pit straight. In October apparently a motocyclist was killed in practice. NZ friends say theres a bump at the top of the hill and it does need to be dealt with, but I think the whole brow needs to be smoothed off.
It meets the current FIA specs for everything in category B and probably isn't inherently dangerous at all but LuiggiSpeed would hate it.

But then he's a motorcyclist.... And his circuit designs reflect that with huge areas of gravel run off all around them.
Personally I don't like gravel and it is not wlways effective.
I am aware of the problems with distance and I don't believe its practical to simply build circuits with 2-300m of runoff at the end of every straight or on the exit to every fast corner.

There is a piece on You Tube where Cameron McConville loses it on the pit straight at Phillip Island (sorry I don't have the link) but essentially misses the gravel trap and the end of the barrier and slices across the track 2-300m from whjere he went off, just missing another car. Its a freak accident but you cant cater for every circumstance. No one wants to see people hurt but simply putting a hundred acres of gravel at the end of a straight isn't the complete answer.

The track below is a national type race circuit that hopefully would be fun on a bike as well as a car. 3.7km or 2.3 miles in my favourite setting, rolling countryside. Track is 14m wide continuously (45.5feet), Few of the corners are constant radius, something I have tried to get away from. It avoids the architectural feel of CAD and architectural based drawing programs that tend to create constant radius turns and 'Tilke looking circuits.
The wide runoffs and all the gravel pits are a concession to bike riders although I prefer to have grass or high grip tarmace beteween the track and the gravel to give a driver a chance to recover without getting stuck.

This may have been a reason LuiggiSpeed asked questions about the run off at my second track. He didn't realise how nmuch space I was creating. If it had all been gravel he may have felt differently.
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Old 5 Dec 2010, 05:56 (Ref:2799773)   #24
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Without that bottom section, this track really looks like the old Surfers Paradise Raceway.

I think an intimidating circuit is a good thing, and means that the drivers actually respect the place.
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Old 5 Dec 2010, 06:38 (Ref:2799779)   #25
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Without that bottom section, this track really looks like the old Surfers Paradise Raceway.

I think an intimidating circuit is a good thing, and means that the drivers actually respect the place.
The old Surfers Paradise?
If it does it never occurred to me in any way at all.
To me the only part slightly resembling the old Surefers paradise would be a main straight followed by right hander leading to another straight, only my corner is a lot slower...
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