Lotus 20 / 22 / 20-22

[pantah]

Originally Posted by pantah

Would anyone know any history of the Centro-Sud car 20-J-909 (and I assume they had more than one Lotus 20 in period). I have records showing various Centro Sud Lots 20's being driven by several drivers including one Lorenzo Bandini none the less!
I have been told by the previous owner that the car was taken from Italy to the USA in the late 60's / early 70's by Lyle Heck, then sold on to a few US owners until it reached Joe Mirabille, then to myself.
Curiously, it lacks the flat strut / bracket behind the driver seat in front of the engine where a frame number would be stamped. I was told the car may have had a 1500cc crossflow at one point which can necessitate removal of that bracket / strut.

Interestingly, I have Lyle Heck in a Lotus 20 racing in the Formula A class at Watkins Glen on 10th August 1968 and again at WG on 20th August 1968.
I'm guessing he must have changed the engine from the 1100cc Junior to whatever FA's ran in the USA in 1968 - and might account for the loss of that bracket.

[PaulieG]

Originally Posted by Bryan Miller

Gents ,

In regard to frame numbers ,

I owned / rescued 20-J-965 some 30 years ago , that was a very strange item, the car was sold new to Geoghegan's in Sydney as Lotus agents having just taken over from Derek Jolly of South Australia .
20-J-965 , agent Geoghegan , eng. no. 762301 , gearbox , H 3868092 , Weber 40DCOE2 numbers 10988 and 11081 , colour black , ex works 9-3-1962
I spoke to Leo Geoghegan about the car which he well remembered due to the fact he was already running his 22-J-49 and in to the car yard came a Yank and wished to purchase a Lotus 20 not even a 22 , Leo told me this was pennies from heaven as '' they were dying in the bum '' with this last unsold Lotus 20 , the purchaser was Ken Milburn , an American , that was his assumed name as his correct name was Kent Price and his father was very big in the USA political system and so as to be able to race he came to Australia and ran under the assumed name as racing was apparently a no no
in the family.
When I rescued the car circa 1978 and stripped it down I found the following
stamped into the flat vertical plate [ engine side] that connects horizontal and diagonal tubes behind the seat back XX LC 1 .
I suspect this car is either the jig car or prototype and in the best tradition of Lotus , March etc. probably lay around after doing it's original job at Lotus Components and late in the piece when an order came in was given a quick refresh and sold to poor old unsuspecting Aussie Agents as a brand new car.

I have looked at other Lotus 20s and have never sighted any frame numbers.

Duncan and I appear to be the only people with the records , I have records of 119 Lotus 20 s , which more accords with Doug Nye's Lotus book which calls out 118 off than the suggested 180 off earlier in this thread.

Bryan Miller.

Hi Bryan,

I have a Lotus 20 in NZ that was imported by an Anthony Eres Shaw & Bryan (Hank) Rossiter who bought it through John Sprinzel. The car arrived in NZ in Oct/Nov 1965 and was raced in NZ until it was crashed in1970/71 and was subsequently sold and stored, until our purchase in 1997. We have the car in a mock up rolling chassis and have a new nose cone as the original one was quite badly damaged. The car had a 1100cc motor with a 4 spd hewland gearbox and was a light/mid pastel blue colour upon arrival in NZ. At some stage the 1100cc was traded out for a 1500cc and the gearbox upgraded to a 5 spd. Although it still has the Hewland Gearbox housing. The flat plate was removed to make way for the 1500cc and the chassis plate has been stripped or removed over the 10 years it was active. I am curious if there is any other way to trace the ownership back to the factory as I have spoken to Hank Rossiter and he knows the car was owned by one owner in europe. We have numerous part numbers from around the car and am wondering if it was possible to trace this way. Your thoughts are appreciated.

[Neptune]

Paulie,

If you'll notice, Bryan included other numbers such as the s/n of the Weber carbs in his description of the 20 he rescued. If this car originated with a VW based Hewland, it would be so easy to upgrade from 4 to 5 spd, so the case could be the same. The Weber numbers would help too. Bryan may be able help.

Does the Hewland retain the inboard drum brakes? I'd like very much to see the side covers and adapters used to do this.

I don't understand what you mean when you say the plate was removed to install a 1500 engine. I've had a 1500 in my car for one shakedown weekend and I don't remember any plate that would've been in the way.

Roger

[Bryan Miller]

Paulie,

Is this the car first registered to car dealer Tony Shaw in 1965 thence to Graham Baker then Bill McCabe in 1970 and badly damaged in a crash at Teretonga thence to Neil Neilson then Ian Bisman in Ohoka ??

As left factory Lotus 20s had either VW [ not Hewland modified ] or Renault 4 speed gearboxes , drum front and rear brakes , most were updated pretty quickly with front discs .
Even if the plate was still intact with a frame number there is no correlation between that and the chassis number that I am aware of.
If it is the above car and has been around since circa 1965 I would think it safe to assume it is a genuine car , which one is the question.
What are the Weber carb. numbers please if they are the originals they should be 40 DCOE2 xxxx and xxxx may even be 5 xxxxx s
Is it definately a Hewland ?? if so what numbers are on it ??

As Roger asked does it retain inboard drums at rear and are they cast iron or finned alloy drums.

Bryan Miller.

[PaulieG]

Hi Bryan,

That is the correct car as per our ownership papers, and we purchased it off Ian Bisman in 1997. The now has inboard disc rear brakes and has a number of "22" upgrades such as seatpan, rear brakes and toplinks and oil tank. The Weber numbers are 42DCOE 3301 and 42DCOE 3405. The VW Gearbox number is H3301103. My photo is a bit unclear at the moment so it could be H3381103.
We also have the part numbers for various parts such as the pedals and pedal assembly, front brake calipers and front wishbone. Are these at all traceable? The cool thing is that this car has been continually registered since 1965 making the ownership easy to trace in NZ. I spoke to Tony Shaw who told me Hank Rossiter who worked for John Sprinzel arranged the sale and imported.

I look forward to hearing from you. Also note this car according to Hank Rossiter had one owner from factory before Tony and the car was a mid to light pastel blue upon arrival.

Cheers
Paul

[Bryan Miller]

I can't assist with those Weber numbers as they are 42DCOE .
The numbers scribed on the pedals etc. are no indication of the chassis number
and I have seen on other Lotus production racing cars , I would expect they are simply a part number to make sure the person assembling car fitted the correct component .

The gearbox number doesn't relate to any info. I have .

The only chance of tracking whose car this was is to go through all old Autosports and similar magazines from the period in the U.K. and maybe the pale blue will be a clue or John Sprinzel name may be on an advert.

Bryan.

[PaulieG]

Originally Posted by Bryan Miller

I can't assist with those Weber numbers as they are 42DCOE .
The numbers scribed on the pedals etc. are no indication of the chassis number
and I have seen on other Lotus production racing cars , I would expect they are simply a part number to make sure the person assembling car fitted the correct component .

The gearbox number doesn't relate to any info. I have .

The only chance of tracking whose car this was is to go through all old Autosports and similar magazines from the period in the U.K. and maybe the pale blue will be a clue or John Sprinzel name may be on an advert.

Bryan.

Hi Bryan,

I have been down to the shed tonight and confirmed the numbers as in my last post. I do however have a hunch on why no numbers are traceable to our car. When Graham Baker owned our car he also purchased a Lotus 22 with the chassis number 22-J-6. This car was crashed quite badly and fixed for Graham Baker by his mechanic Eric Johnson. With our car we have a Lotus 22 body, a 22 oil tank, a 22 seat, 22 toplink suspension, 13 inch wheels (20's had 15's) a dry sump motor and inboard disc brakes.The front brake calipers also have LM22 stamped into them. Our hunch is that they had an outdated 20 and a crashed 22 so built one good car out of what they had making a car suitable for Tasman Series. This car raced in the tasman series in NZ from 1966 to 1968, and hence has a 1500 block bored out to a bigger capacity to compete against the 2.5L Tasman Cars.
Would appreciate your thoughts.

Paul

[R D P]

My car (20-J-892) has the number 83 stamped (upside down) on the frame or better on the vertical plate in front of the engine / behind the driver.
Would this be the frame number stamped in from the frame builder ?
It can be seen (hopefully) on the photo - it is difficult to shoot a decent one with ma camera..it is on the plate just where the indent is.



Ralf

[R D P]

One more question - because I have seen differencies here - have the Chassis number on the chassis plate (the one on the dashboard) been stamped or kind of been scribbled on ?Ralf

[Bryan Miller]

Paul,

I think your view on what happened to the car is very likely correct , correct Lotus 20s had front 13.0'' and 15.0'' rear wheels , the Lotus 22 had outboard rear discs and Lotus 20 inboard drums , so somebody has done a conversion.

The LM 22 on calipers I would expect is simply the material used for casting by the foundry in the U.K.

R D P , that location is where my frame was stamped as well , 83 I presume is a number from the chassis makers , probably for their records when selling a batch to the car constructor , re. the chassis plate I to have seen differing ways .

[R D P]

Paul thank you for letting me know - it just looked strange that the number is upside down. Did they stamp that panel before welding it to the frame, possibly ?

Ralf

[PaulieG]

Well people, I have cracked it! It took 14 months of research but I have finally found out that my car is Lotus 20-J-862 purchased by Malcolm Templeton of Antrim N.I colour - green. It was traded the following year on a 22. Now I only have to find out who owned/raced it in 1962 and 1963 and I will have the complete history from 1961 - 2012.....Amazing! For the record the 1964 owner was Keith St Jones, the ex Radio London Team driver. He sold it to Tony Shaw in NZ. If anyone knows where either person is I will be dead keen to contact them!

[Blackie]

You have a Lotus 22 that has some similar history to ours. We purchased ours out of Florida some years ago. We believe our car may be one of the Russell cars you mentioned in your post. Our serial number is 22FJ-36 and has SCCA Florida region numbers on the roll bar. Would like to compare notes!

Blackie

[Neptune]

Blackie,

Send me a PM through this site and I will reply by e-mail. Although I was never able to find the Florida couple that bought the four cars from MGM, I was able to find their mechanic through SCCA contacts, and he was able to tell me some interesting tales.

I also have some old "Competition Press & Autoweek" mags and there was another 20/22 for sale in '68 or '69 and I was able to trace that seller from decades earlier through SCCA. He had bought the identical car to mine from the Williams family. He remembered the other duplicate car (my 20 J 962) when he made his purchase. He kept it, raced it and a year later was selling it through CP&A. I'll try to find my correspondence with him, but its been 10 years now.

SCCA didn't require log books and matching roll bar numbers until 1971 or 72, so it'll be a long shot if we can get anything to line up, but its certainly worth a try.

I think I had gotten a list of ex-JRRRDS cars at one time, so I may be able to confirm or not your car number being a Russell car.

Roger

[Chris Chilcott]

FYI

I sold my 20 (FJ-20-968) on 1st Dec 2014, following its being exhibited in Lugano along with 6 or 7 other ex Silvio Moser cars. I am highly delighted to say it has been purchased by the Moser family so has 'gone home' as they say. I have just sent all the original & some broken bits over to Beat Shenker, who will put the car back to original spec (Original gear box casing, engine/g-box adaptor, Alfin rear drum, front disc brakes etc). It was a real privilege to meet Silvio's son Jimmy (Named after Jim Clark) and his widow Rosa, as well as Aldo Pessina (Who drove the car in period) and Beat Shenker who helped me with its history and many others associated with Silvio over the years.

[Rupertlt1]

Can anybody identify the Al Pease 'Honest Ed'-sponsored Lotus 20 from the early sixties in Ontario, Canada?

[vegantune]

I am based in Ireland. I have a lotus 20 chassis. Unfortunately there is no chassis number tag. I want to try to find the frame number. This chassis has been in our family's possession since the mid 1960's . It has laid idle in our owner ship since. I would like to find out about the chassis early life. Should I be looking at the near side rear suspension mount for the frame number. Thanks

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by vegantune

I am based in Ireland. I have a lotus 20 chassis. Unfortunately there is no chassis number tag. I want to try to find the frame number. This chassis has been in our family's possession since the mid 1960's . It has laid idle in our owner ship since. I would like to find out about the chassis early life. Should I be looking at the near side rear suspension mount for the frame number. Thanks

Apart from the rear face of the rear suspension mounts (worth looking at both sides) you could also try the cross tube that goes between them or on the underside of the top part of the middle bulkhead (near the steering column support).

Some frames might never have had numbers and given the length of time your family has had the frame I think you would find it is acceptable anyway (assuming you were to turn it into a car).

[Lotus20Guy]

Hello Im new here and the excited owner of a 1961 lotus 20. I purchased the car from a collector in California who knew very little of the car, and did not have any log books or knowledge of its history other than whom he purchased it from.
After spending days looking for a chassis number, I struck out and started the investigation of its history. I have researched it back to Ted Smith who acquired in late 1997 raced the car in several events on both coasts here in the colony's during the 1998 season. He was researching the cars past on many sites before his untimely passing in late 1998. Reading his posts,and reply's it seems he felt the car possibly came from NZ, im guessing because of the lack of chassis ID stamp. He was aware the car had not been raced in the eight years before his purchase. I traced the fuel cell purchase in 1997 to a Bill Dolson's shop in NJ ironically ( since I reside in NJ also), (don't hold it against me)but it closed in 2004, I've located his cell and left a message, hoping to hear back as he certainly holds some clues if he remembers the car or has retained records. He either owned the car or did restoration work on it. The Key to identifying this car is the Frame has been Stretched 5.5 Inches in the midsection of the main frame tubes, (the welding is exceptional) and possibly dates back to its manufacturing, not sure. The car was entered and raced by Mr. Smith in several events in 1998 as a 20B, it has a 105 E and Renault Dolphine gearbox. It appears to have the 20/22 conversion to discs & additional rear suspension bar. Its currently Red #20 but chips on the (also stretched nose) clearly show it was BRG at one point. I have many many pictures of the car and would gladly email anyone interested in seeing them.
Im hoping this forum is still active as it has provided the most insite into this fascinating aspect of owning a vintage lotus. thanks and hope to hear from you, feel free to email me. B.C.

[PeterMorley]

Don't know if it helps but wasn't the guy who started race-cars.com Bill Dolson?
Maybe it's the same guy?

[Lotus20Guy]

Hey thanks for your interest. Yes it was, he sold the site to web specialists whom Ive spoke with this week, they had no car or history info but did give me
his Cell which I am awaiting a reply. The fuel cell was purchased from fuel safe in huntington beach by Mr. Dolson. Its my last lead and a good one, he has left the racing world but im hoping he will return my call soon. Regards, B.

[Bryan Miller]

Reply to both Vegantune and Lotus 20 guy.

Frame number may also be found on the vertical flat panel behind drivers back on rear face if this still exists .

That is where I found mine 25 years ago on 20-J-965 .

There is no difference on a Lotus 20 chassis length whether or not it had a VW or Renault Dauphine gearbox.

The mind boggles as to what the reason was for a 5.5'' extension , very tall driver perhaps .

[Lotus20Guy]

Originally Posted by Bryan Miller

Reply to both Vegantune and Lotus 20 guy.

Frame number may also be found on the vertical flat panel behind drivers back on rear face if this still exists .

That is where I found mine 25 years ago on 20-J-965 .

There is no difference on a Lotus 20 chassis length whether or not it had a VW or Renault Dauphine gearbox.

The mind boggles as to what the reason was for a 5.5'' extension , very tall driver perhaps .

Hey Brian, I've seen that post and picture of that and looked immediately when the car arrived. Now just thinking the tube sections are 5.5 inches but that does not necessarily mean the frame stretch was that, My Wheelbase now measures 95" best I can measure by myself !! What is the correct wheelbase ?? Not sure why I cannot post pictures here, it would be extremely helpful if I could. Regards, Blake.

[Bryan Miller]

Wheelbase should 90.0'' .

Bryan Miller.

[macca]

This is interesting.......when the Jim Russell Racing School Lotus 20s and 22s were sold to MGM and used in the filming of 'Grand Prix' in 1966, it is reported that one had its chassis lengthened to accommodate James Garner who was taller than the other actors. Some of the MGM cars in their fake 'Ferrari' or 'Yamura' bodywork went to the USA to be used for film publicity when it was released.

In order to post pictures you have to have an account with a photo-hosting site such as Photobucket or Postimage (which are free); you then load whatever pictures you want there, and copy and paste the url onto here.

Paul M