Honda Vs Toyota

Mark F1 · 1 Apr 2002, 20:04 (Ref:249283)

I have to say that I, like many, have been pleasently suprised by Toyota's form so far this year and very disapointed by the Honda teams, Jordan and BAR.

Out of 12 starts for the Honda cars this year, they have only finished 5 times and obviously, none of them in the points. From 6 starts, the Toyota's have finished 4 times and only Allan McNish's DNF in Brazil has been due to mechanical failure. Their two points finishes have been a little lucky because of some of the top runners running into trouble, but it is still a huge achivement by having 2 points after only their third Grand Prix.

The Toyota engine is also hugely powerful, revving at 18,000 RPM, which puts them only behind BMW, Mercedes and Ferrari, whilst it is well noted that the Honda is down on power. In my opinion, with Renault, Sauber & Toyota challenging the Top 3 at each race, I think Jordan and BAR will find it hard to score more than 10 points each this season.

f1manoz · 2 Apr 2002, 01:18 (Ref:249499)

I'll just say this:

When I buy a car, I'll buy a Camry (or a Commodore as I'd rather buy that)

Toyota have really exceeded everyones (even their own) expectations. Considering that they thought they'd struggle to qualify, scoring two points in three races is a remarkable achievement. The engine is powerful, the chassis stable and developing well and Salo is driving his balls off.

Honda, meanwhile, are struggling, BIG TIME! They lack power, reliability and I wonder if Jordan and BAR are getting slightly fed up with the complete lack of progress they seem to be making.

HKUSP40C · 2 Apr 2002, 17:42 (Ref:250121)

I think their engine is more powerful than the Mercedes.

Kex · 2 Apr 2002, 17:54 (Ref:250127)

Honda rely too much on past glories. I prefer Toyota anyway. The way Honda left Williams at the end of 1987 was pretty ****. Apparently they wanted Nakajima as the Williams No. 2 in 1988 if they were to keep supplying them.

OVERSTEER · 2 Apr 2002, 18:13 (Ref:250139)

I think that the way things are going, Toyota will be able to us their slogan, The car in front is a Toyota something that Honda won't be able to use, more like they'll have to use The car behind,so far behind they're taking the p*ss is a Honda

DavyboyLT1 · 2 Apr 2002, 18:53 (Ref:250156)

I'll never forget Honda's first year in CART racing, with Bobby Rahal. Rahal failed to qualify until he gave up on his Honda, and borrowed a year-old Penske to get into the race. A day or two later, they were still showing Honda ads on TV with the catchphrase "See you at Indy..."

But that was their first year - they continued developing the engine after that, and eventually came to be the dominant manufacturer in that formula.

I'm not ready to write Honda off just yet, but with Toyota's early success, Honda engineers have a few sleepless nights ahead of them.

BMW Power · 2 Apr 2002, 20:00 (Ref:250240)

Honda is a very good company.They are having a bad time but do not write them of.I think in time Honda will win the championship.The formula one of today is not the same formula one of the 80's.Its taking time for Honda to get things in order but they are a very very good and top class outfit.Besides I drive a Honda.hehheh!

neilap · 2 Apr 2002, 21:14 (Ref:250348)

Grrrr!! Who dares challenge the might of... What am I thinking? Right now they do not look good. This is because they are attempting something different with hopes of future success. I think they believe they will have one of the best engines if not the best by choosing the route they are now. At the start of the season they already acknowledged there were still issues with the motor. Lets see how they progress. Toyota is not doing what Honda is. They had two years to develop the motor that they are using. This is a brand new concept from Honda. Look at Renault. They looked worse that Honda does now. I bet most feel that they have a good chance of beating Mac. this year. Toyota looks good this year. I feel/hope that by the end of this year Honda will have the upper hand in the comparison between the two.

Oh yeah Toyota would have to pay me to drive a Camry. In fact it has slipped down the ladder quite a bit. In fact it is rated lower than the 5 year old Accord in quality and overall value. Until the new Accord comes out the best deal now is the Altima. Hmmm, dont they have some affiliation with Renault.

Valve Bounce · 3 Apr 2002, 00:12 (Ref:250463)

Look!! There have been three races already, and I can't think, offhand without checking the records, of many Hondas qualifying ahead of Salo or finishing ahead of Salo's Toyota. Some of us were thinking that maybe Minardi could qualify ahead of Toyota, but we have trulli underestimated Toyota. Now we are thinking maybe Webber can qualify ahead of a Honda

f1manoz · 3 Apr 2002, 00:17 (Ref:250466)

Quote:

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
Now we are thinking maybe Webber can qualify ahead of a Honda

Well, stranger things have happened

And he wasn't too far behind anyone in Brazil. Webbers a quick lad......

TeddyG · 3 Apr 2002, 01:29 (Ref:250496)

hehe funny you should say that Neilap I just finished an essay for my economics class about Stratigic alliances in the Auto industry....Renault saving Nissan's ass was the main theme! Hmmm maybe they will help to drag them into F1 as well!!

DNQ · 3 Apr 2002, 02:41 (Ref:250517)

Well...Honda....what can one say. The days of Senna and Prost acing the field with a Honda behind them seem like centuries ago now...

Valve Bounce · 3 Apr 2002, 03:45 (Ref:250534)

This is ht eday of Fiat, Daimler Benz, BMW and Renault - all big guns, and Toyota has come to join the party. Both Ford and Honda seem to be lacking in thier engine and or chassis.

Nicholas · 3 Apr 2002, 17:34 (Ref:251009)

True, we laughed at Renault, but then we knew (of course we did!

) they'd improve- a bit like the '80s. Honda's been around for three years now and they are getting worse each year. And unlike BAR Dave Richards is not really in a position to do anything about them.

neilap · 3 Apr 2002, 17:40 (Ref:251018)

GF outqualified Salo in Australia and in Maylasia. Toyota is doing the right thing. finishing races. That is killing Honda. Toyota has started as a mid pack team. That is good but for the company that they are could anyone expect any less? I want to see their progress throught the year before I make any conclusions. I was not on this board last year but I want to know if Renault was being dissed like this too. Honda is trying new and different things. That cant be a bad thing. Success is hard to come by going the conventional way, so imagine taking the road less traveled. Wait and see. I know for a fact that there is more to come from Honda. It might take awhile but there will be improvement.

DavyboyLT1 · 3 Apr 2002, 18:19 (Ref:251082)

Quote:

Originally posted by DavyboyLT1
I'll never forget Honda's first year in CART racing, with Bobby Rahal. Rahal failed to qualify until he gave up on his Honda, and borrowed a year-old Penske to get into the race.

I should probably elaborate here: It was the Indy 500 that Rahal borrowed the Penske to qualify for.

Sorry for any confusion.....

Speedworx · 3 Apr 2002, 18:21 (Ref:251086)

Toyota have the legs on Honda, even at this early stage of the season.

Whether Honda can claw it back, is another question.

Mantis13 · 3 Apr 2002, 18:31 (Ref:251104)

In all fairness to Honda, look at the teams there associated with. Not exactly world beaters. Most if not all of Honda's success in F1 has been with top teams. McLaren anyone? But you have to wonder what if Harvey Postlewaith was still alive and Honda came into F1 as a full team. Would they have fared any different.

Jay · 3 Apr 2002, 20:29 (Ref:251220)

I doubt it... There's no way Honda can blame BAR or Jordan for their lack of results. Both teams have been having problem after problem with their engines. It seems that whenever they miss track time or are put out of the race it is due to an engine problem.... Not to mention that both teams are well behind in the speed traps.

The Honda engine may be able to produce as much HP as some of the top engines, but it is certainly not converting it to speed. A lot more than HP goes into making a good engine. Whatever they're problem is, Honda has a long way to go....

neilap · 3 Apr 2002, 22:53 (Ref:251397)

Huh? I would not look at trap speeds to determine the engines power. Also if BAR's chassis was so good why are so many people who were responsible for it being fired. If Jordan was so good, why did they have to change the front of the car. If the chassis is good, you stand a better chance of high trap speeds than with a strong motor alone. When you can carry more speed out of corner you will have top speeds. That is all chassis and aero. The motor is not as down on power as some want to think. Anyway we all know that Honda wont just sit by and watch other teams win. None of us are qualified to really state the strenth and weaknesses of the teams. Plus there is a lot of misinformation given out. Who really thinks Toyota felt they would not make the grid. What they did was make their achievements look even greater. Kinda like Busta Douglas knocking out Mike Tyson. That is the effect they are going for. Its the third round and Douglas has won the first 3. 14 more to go!!

Valve Bounce · 4 Apr 2002, 01:25 (Ref:251444)

Quote:

Originally posted by neilap
GF outqualified Salo in Australia and in Maylasia. Toyota is doing the right thing. finishing races. That is killing Honda. Toyota has started as a mid pack team. That is good but for the company that they are could anyone expect any less? I want to see their progress throught the year before I make any conclusions. I was not on this board last year but I want to know if Renault was being dissed like this too. Honda is trying new and different things. That cant be a bad thing. Success is hard to come by going the conventional way, so imagine taking the road less traveled. Wait and see. I know for a fact that there is more to come from Honda. It might take awhile but there will be improvement.

Yes, we had many long discussions about Renault and their 111 degree engine last year. Minardi Fan was at one of the tracks during testing, before the season started (I think), and he confirmed that Renault engines were not revving at top speed, sounding like a garbage disposal sink unit with water running in.
Renault worked long and hard at developing their engine on the track, and suffered the ignominy of being out qualified and out raced by Minardi. It was making everyone here laugh like mad. But they persevered in the face of abject derision, and look where they are now. I agree that Honda seem to be going backwards. Toyota, on the other hand, did the hard miles at testing, and it is my opinion that they are already better than Honda now, which surprises me completely. I have noticed a trait in Toyota which I like - they seem to do very well from 1st practice before a GP. To me, this indicates that they have done their homework, tested well, and are very thorough in their preparation for each GP. Honda seems like George Dubbya Bush's policies: STRATEGIC INCOHERENCE

:confused: I have lamented Honda not buying out BAR 3 years ago, and now not buying out Prost and giving both Jordan and BAR the bum's rush. Honda nust have full and total control of their own team to succeed in F1.

mariov · 4 Apr 2002, 03:13 (Ref:251478)

Toyota have the upper hand right now, and I dont see Honda catching up this year.

Yes part of the blame goes to Bar and Jordan, without a balance and areodinamic chassy....the engine cant show its potential...but where Bar is concerned, honda has been involved with the chassy also.

Yes the Honda is a wider angle engine, and it will take time to develop it...and they should have been up front about it,,,instead of promissing an increase in power for the start of the season...now that increase wont show up till Montreal...and right now I dont really beleive it will make a difference....

Toyota have played it right and by the book....a year of testing before joinning....(Which honda had all the Muggen experience under their belt) and playing it low key...all they where hopping for was to qualify for each race....and a few points by the end of the year.....

Does anyone know which track Toyota did not test on?

Monaco, Montreal, Indy....what others?...those will give a good indication of their potential

What others tracks did they not test on? Which one is the first one they will race on ?

Valve Bounce · 4 Apr 2002, 06:50 (Ref:251555)

Brazil. I read in F1-Live that they could not test at Interlagos.
I think that they have got their reliability, power, and aero package in sync with the chassis. It just goes to underscore the amount of serious work they did last year.

Super Tourer · 4 Apr 2002, 08:24 (Ref:251614)

Honda's F1 return has been a half-hearted attempt from the start. Watering down their investment and effort by supplying two teams simply isn't working and why they persist with it I can't imagine.

BMW & Renault have raised the game in F1 and Honda simply can't or won't react accordingly. Watching Toyota waltz into F1 and scoring points after only 3 races, whilst Honda's 4 car entry sits on a fat zero, will make painful viewing for Honda and may force them into some pro-active action.

On the subject of engines, I think Mercedes are nearing the end of their cycle in F1. No engine manufacturer (Ferrari apart!), can keep producing and developing engines without a break (Ford, Ren,BMW & Honda have all come and gone over the years). It happened to them in Cart and it seems to be happening to them in F1. It may well be that the current engine basis is at the end of its development, as attempts to extract more performance from it seem to have made it unreliable - which is often the first sign that the engine is crying enough!

Jukebox · 4 Apr 2002, 08:38 (Ref:251621)

Ferrari, Toyota & Renault will have the upperhand simply because they build their own engines and easily fitting their gearboxes, chasis etc...meanwhile other teams have to build them to fit the engine suppliers powerplant. Honda simply have to realise this or live thru the humiliation.

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