Continental Tire SportsCar Challenge

[Rcz]

How would save the series Vicent?

Price caps?

[Cheyne]

Take it back to showroom stock. Price cap struts/shocks. Spec brakes or stock brakes. No TC and only stock factory ABS. No Motec or Bosch electronics. Base model cars only that have to be 50 state street legal. No factory built cars or teams. This would be a good start.

[jjvincent]

You might want to go back and look at the 10 reasons why people left.

Think of it this way. If you went to a steakhouse (let's call it, "The Continental")for the last 20 years and even though the prices kept going up, the food, service and atmosphere were the same. Then a few years ago, they put in another price increase and the quality of the food went down, they were not nearly as friendly when it came to service and the atmosphere is just not like it used to be.

What if next store the Lambo Steakhouse opened up? It's got great food, great service and really nice atmosphere. Plus the prices are much cheaper. Would you make the switch and go there or go back to The Continental?

What if on the other side of The Continental, the GT3 Cup Steakhouse opened up? Great food, great service and an atmosphere about like The Continental but the price is really cheap. Would you go there or go back to The Continental.

People have a choice. When you drive the cost up and decrease things like the product atmosphere and service, people go to the places that give them what they want. That's why The Continental has 7 customers inside, The Lambo has 20 and The GT3 Cup has 23. All you got to do is stand out on the street, observe and do some exit surveys as to why people chose the restaurant they did.

[WolfsburgRS]

Quite an excellent analogy.

I've heard some of the back end staff changes to the CTSCC series are not well loved by competitors.

[Bob Baldwin]

Originally Posted by jjvincent

You might want to go back and look at the 10 reasons why people left.

Think of it this way. If you went to a steakhouse (let's call it, "The Continental")for the last 20 years and even though the prices kept going up, the food, service and atmosphere were the same. Then a few years ago, they put in another price increase and the quality of the food went down, they were not nearly as friendly when it came to service and the atmosphere is just not like it used to be.

What if next store the Lambo Steakhouse opened up? It's got great food, great service and really nice atmosphere. Plus the prices are much cheaper. Would you make the switch and go there or go back to The Continental?

What if on the other side of The Continental, the GT3 Cup Steakhouse opened up? Great food, great service and an atmosphere about like The Continental but the price is really cheap. Would you go there or go back to The Continental.

People have a choice. When you drive the cost up and decrease things like the product atmosphere and service, people go to the places that give them what they want. That's why The Continental has 7 customers inside, The Lambo has 20 and The GT3 Cup has 23. All you got to do is stand out on the street, observe and do some exit surveys as to why people chose the restaurant they did.

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[nasportscar]

data analysis from Laguna Seca http://nasportscar.com/2016-ctsc-ana...y-laguna-seca/

[FormulaFox]

Rumor has reached my inbox that a "mother chassis" concept has been floated for the GS class, but shelved for later consideration should other plans prove unfeasible.

[YZFrider]

Always nice to hear options being discussed. GT4, to LMP3, to mother chassis. Times change, and so must sanctioning bodies to stay afloat. But that is one half of the equation, the other is to decide and execute

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by YZFrider

Always nice to hear options being discussed. GT4, to LMP3, to mother chassis. Times change, and so must sanctioning bodies to stay afloat. But that is one half of the equation, the other is to decide and execute

From what I understand, GT4 is the frontrunning plan due to how similar it is to GS as it currently stands. Many GT4 cars are already GS legal, and balancing the remainder should not be difficult. Some people may not like the fact that GT4 allows kit cars like the SIN R1, but that's just how things have to develop sometimes.

[Rcz]

But will it fix the management problems that's been plaguing IMSA?

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Rcz

But will it fix the management problems that's been plaguing IMSA?

Nothing short of kicking out said management is likely to fix that. Fortunately, based on things I've been hearing, thatt's only a matter of time. Certain individuals on the Weathertech side -which is management's biggest concern at this time- are going to be very frustrated if management doesn't play smartly, so unless they wise up and fix themselves there'll be a big push to get rid of them by the end of 2017.

[jjvincent]

GT4 will save the GS class. As you can see, it has made GTS to the point where so many cars are showing up that the rumor is, field caps are on the way.

Mother chassis is even a better plan. It will keep away the teams that can't step up to the plate (i.e. Rum Bum, Fall Line, Phoenix, Turner etc.). This will be a level playing field that will allow only the best of the best and keep out the factory teams from coming in and dominating then leaving the series a mess (i.e. BMW).

I just can't figure out why hundreds of cars show up at SCCA, NASA, BMWCCA and PCA races yet avoid PWC and IMSA like the plague (450 showed up at Mid-Ohio this weekend). By last count, at least 25 current GS cars were running on the east coast this weekend and a dozen Cayman GT4 cars. Yet, only 7 GS cars show up for an IMSA race and 15 for GTS. I guess when we go to the mother chassis or GT4, that will change everything.

[DeezPutz]

Originally Posted by jjvincent

GT4 will save the GS class. As you can see, it has made GTS to the point where so many cars are showing up that the rumor is, field caps are on the way.

Mother chassis is even a better plan. It will keep away the teams that can't step up to the plate (i.e. Rum Bum, Fall Line, Phoenix, Turner etc.). This will be a level playing field that will allow only the best of the best and keep out the factory teams from coming in and dominating then leaving the series a mess (i.e. BMW).

I just can't figure out why hundreds of cars show up at SCCA, NASA, BMWCCA and PCA races yet avoid PWC and IMSA like the plague (450 showed up at Mid-Ohio this weekend). By last count, at least 25 current GS cars were running on the east coast this weekend and a dozen Cayman GT4 cars. Yet, only 7 GS cars show up for an IMSA race and 15 for GTS. I guess when we go to the mother chassis or GT4, that will change everything.

So what simple changes can IMSA make to bring in more cars?

[jjvincent]

Originally Posted by DeezPutz

So what simple changes can IMSA make to bring in more cars?

Go back to the business plan that worked for IMSA from 1985-1997, 1998-2001 for the ASN and 2001-2013 for GA. They deviated from that and now you see the results. Go back to what works.

I suspect that it's easier to blame the formula as to the sudden downfall of the series. If you promise a change in the future, it just puts off the inevitable complaining that will happen 3 years down the road. Then at that point you can blame a transition year or just introduce a now formula.

One real problem is that IMSA refuses to recognize that there are many other places for guys to go spend their money to get their kicks. Until they do, they will continue to keep claiming quality over quantity. As we all know, that's not the reality. Just give the customers what they want and they won't go away. They told IMSA what they wanted and obviously the numbers demonstrate that they did not listen.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by jjvincent

I just can't figure out why hundreds of cars show up at SCCA, NASA, BMWCCA and PCA races yet avoid PWC and IMSA like the plague (450 showed up at Mid-Ohio this weekend).

You're seriously going to use club classes as a point of measurement? The bulk of the SCCA classes cost a fraction of the price of an ST car to run. There's your answer.

And this crosses into PWC, as well - it costs far less to run a schedule of sprint races than a schedule of endurance races.

I guess when we go to the mother chassis or GT4, that will change everything.

Nobody knows for sure what will or will not fix everything. But here's the simple fact of the matter: Staying the course is NOT working. So something needs to change, and a change in management isn't likely to be sufficient.

Originally Posted by jjvincent

Go back to the business plan that worked for IMSA from 1985-1997, 1998-2001 for the ASN and 2001-2013 for GA. They deviated from that and now you see the results. Go back to what works.

So a management system that killed two major championships and one that only survived by subsidizing entries with the assistance of NASCAR money?

Sorry, but that's not something I'd describe as "working."

[MaskedRacer]

This Detroit round is a good case for LMP3 in Conti?

[Rcz]

No, in fact I'm stating to doubt the whole pro am thing.

It feels so unnecessary, there's like 15 cars in GTD, that about many Gt cars were in the late days of Grand-Am, the PC class is still single digits, and during the last of the ALMS there were only 2 or 4 P2 cars that used Pro-Am, is this system really important?

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Rcz

No, in fact I'm stating to doubt the whole pro am thing.

It feels so unnecessary, there's like 15 cars in GTD, that about many Gt cars were in the late days of Grand-Am, the PC class is still single digits, and during the last of the ALMS there were only 2 or 4 P2 cars that used Pro-Am, is this system really important?

As long as those Am drivers want a P class option, it is quite important.

Single-digit car counts itself isn't a bad thing in 3-4 class series - as long as you're talking 8-9 as opposed to 5-6, at least.

I'd rather see PC/PC in Conti than the top series just due to the way things have been, but not if there's good reason to keep it in the top series.

[jjvincent]

You're seriously going to use club classes as a point of measurement? The bulk of the SCCA classes cost a fraction of the price of an ST car to run. There's your answer.

Where do you think the teams and drivers come from that have been running in this series for the last 30 years? SCCA Club racing. Over the last 15, they come from SCCA Club Racing, PCA and BMWCCA. These teams and drivers didn't come out of thin air. You actually know this because you have been involved in thus series for many years.

So a management system that killed two major championships and one that only survived by subsidizing entries with the assistance of NASCAR money?

IMSA didn't kill off the series twice (they killed off many others but not the one that we talking about here). PSCR sold the series to the ASN because Andy Evans thought the series was not "pro" enough. ASN/Motorola Cup survived as long as Motorola was throwing record amounts of prize money at it. When that came to an end, GA bought it and ended up making it thrive without NASCAR subsiding it. You know this because you have been involved in the series for a long time and know the financials of how it worked.

So something needs to change, and a change in management isn't likely to be sufficient.

So, GS fields went down 70% and ST down 21% ever since the management change. Yet all of these drivers and teams have gone elsewhere to race their cars. Plus those other series' are seeing record numbers of entries yet IMSA is going the opposite direction. Seems to me that management is at fault and shifting the blame to the formula is only a short term solution that does not address the real problem at hand. Again you know this because you were there for the GA days and watched the change that happened with the merger. Amazing thing is that the immediate management for the series is not at fault, it's their bosses above them that are the problem.

The points you bring up just boggle my mind. They are the complete opposite as to everyone I know that has left the series. You and I know the same people and have worked side by side in the paddock for years. I'd think that pointing out the fact that the management changed in 2014 and then within 2 years, the series is seeing record low numbers of entries, that you might want to go back to something that worked as opposed to a band aid solution.

As you know, this series gave the club racer the way to step up to the next level. It was within reach and they had fun. It brought value to them. Now they have gone back to club racing and have no desire to come back unless the management changes and starts treating the racers who write big checks to fund these programs, as valued customers and not some annoying side show.

It's just like in the restaurant business. If you treat your customers well and give them a good product, they will spend extra to get it. If you don't, they go away and will never come back no matter how many times you change the menu because there are other restaurants out there. People spend money to race or eat out because they want to, not because they have to. When they have a choice, they go for the best value in their mind.

I don't understand why this is so difficult for people to understand. If you own your own business or work for someone else and are a consumer, you would understand this basic business 101 concept pretty well. Unless you look at history and analyze your current situation of declining business, you are destined to fail. You can't have a business plan where you keep throwing things up against the wall and see what sticks. If you are going to do that, go to a casino or go play the lottery. You have about as much success there.

[FormulaFox]

I shake my head in sadness. Words cannot express how badly you just missed the point. Nothing I can say will clear up the matter for you. And yet I am still compelled to try...

All I'm going to say to sum up is that the Conti series was oversaturated. It was only going to go down regardless of the new management. There are far more elements involved in the matter than you're willing to admit to. If the series was in as good a shape as you want to believe, the management change would have had ZERO effect. All it has done is provide a convenient excuse.

[jjvincent]

There are far more elements involved in the matter than you're willing to admit to.

I'm all ears and so is everyone else. Start talking.

If the series was in as good a shape as you want to believe, the management change would have had ZERO effect.

Since I'm wrong, then prove it. That's all I ask.

All it has done is provide a convenient excuse.

A convenient excuse for what? I'm all ears.

You can keep disagreeing with me but I'm just looking for specific examples to counter. Since you have not come up with any, I'd say you have none. Ball is in your court. We are all waiting.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by jjvincent

I'm all ears and so is everyone else. Start talking.

Not much point given how often the real issues have already been covered with you and those who back you refusing to acknowledge them.

Give me a good reason to waste further time outlining matters that you have in the past utterly refused to acknowledge, and I'll be glad to explain again.

Since I'm wrong, then prove it. That's all I ask.

One simple example: Much blame was placed on management allowing in the Z28 Camaro for killing the GS class. Yet this year, the predicted resurgence that would result from the car being gone has not occurred. .

This is evidence of a problem that runs deeper than management making poor choices. The oversaturation of series entries in previous years is a far bigger contributor than you're willing to consider.

A convenient excuse for what? I'm all ears.

You should already know. You're the one blaming them for all the troubles with no concrete evidence other than timing. Sorry to say, but convenient timing doesn't prove anything. Current management isn't perfect, or even decent, but to put the entirety of the blame on them just because of the timing is nothing more than using them as a convenient excuse to ignore the real matter: The Conti classes simply no longer interest a sufficient number of teams.

Look at the surge in interest in Trans-Am's TA2 class if you need evidence of that. For whatever reason, that class has gained a wider appeal than the Conti GS class. If the GS is as appealing as you claim, there wouldn't have been a drop like this even WITH the poor management.

Since you have not come up with any, I'd say you have none.

I, and many others, have listed many reasons over the past few months. You have refused to acknowledge any of them.

Ball is in your court. We are all waiting.

No, it's in yours. The information is out there. It's up to you to process it now. In fact, I pointed out a contributing issue in the very comment you responded to(and have repeated it here) and you ignored it. I'm sure this time will be no different.

[Rcz]

You it's funny you bring up Trans-Am.

The series was pretty much destroyed by the SCCA. But now a new management has brought new life into the series.

In otherwords, it's the management.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Rcz

You it's funny you bring up Trans-Am.

The series was pretty much destroyed by the SCCA. But now a new management has brought new life into the series.

In otherwords, it's the management.

Not true. If you actually look at the revived series, you'll notice that it too struggled similarly to the series at the end of it's days. It wasn't until the TA2 class was formed that it began it's surge, which shows the core problem to have been lack of sufficient interest in the type of equipment the series ran.

Inept management alone doesn't kill a series or class, it only compounds on existing issues. Interest in the type of cars being run in Conti is waning - simple as that. If IMSA makes the right changes, there's no reason the series can't see a resurgence.Whether or not they will is a completely different question entirely.

Something to consider: The TA2 class of Trans-Am is a "mother chassis" class, just with restrictions on what cars the chassis can be shelled with. There's a clear interest in these cars that Conti could benefit from, so maybe IMSA should NOT be shelving the mother chassis idea.

[WolfsburgRS]

While I can't claim any super in-depth knowledge of the series workings per say, but I know the management change was not popular with competitors and when it was even being introduced people were ready to jump ship.

Second, when I quit my job two years ago it was mainly because my direct manager, the owner, was terrible and making mine and everyone's life hell. Did i still like the job outside of this issue? Yes. Did i quit anyway? Yes. Since then he's made some changes to his management style and he lured me back in. It's the same job, doing the same business, with the same parts, pieces and problems but the whole thing is 100% better.

To say people don't want to race BMWs, Porsches, Mustangs and Camaros seems pretty unlikely considering how many are in competition each weekend in various series. Yeah a lot of lower buck club racing isn't even close to IMSA or even PWC, but as JJV says it's not like these teams all vanished.