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Old 2 Jun 2017, 09:18 (Ref:3738093)   #76
PS2244
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Originally Posted by Mixer View Post
Is it "original"? Chris Lambden claims so, but how is anybody to know what was going on in secret before Chris went public? Nobody is to know.



Supercars didn't release it. Their logo is, but this seems to be from PAYCE/Wilson, and it isn't even on Supercars website.



All the above aside, this makes sense from a pragmatic point of view.

Especially if I was an engine builder locally I'd want it to grow legs over people running Coyotes.
This project is run and funded by Payce
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Old 2 Jun 2017, 09:32 (Ref:3738095)   #77
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one five five should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridone five five should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Car looks fabulous, a shame about it's origins

FT5000 and Super5000 have no hope of getting up in any fashion unless there is a merger or Lambden gives in.

FT5000 or Super5000 would only help F4, not hinder it. Infact i think F4 only remains viable in the long-term if there is a proper open-wheel series above it.
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Old 2 Jun 2017, 09:58 (Ref:3738100)   #78
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Ospi should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridOspi should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
So the engine will cost half that of the total car? Interesting. Will need dedicated engine technicians to run those donks at each round as well. Interesting decision to run those instead of what is readily available and able to achieve the same power for less than half the cost and no need for dedicated track support.
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Old 2 Jun 2017, 10:01 (Ref:3738101)   #79
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Literally the only similarities between both the F5000 remakes and Formula 4 is that they are open wheel cars with wings and slicks and that they might both end up on the Supercars support bill.

Other then that, there is a considerable difference in power and speed, they will serve completely different purposes in the Australian motorsport scene and will be aimed at a different group of drivers.

Formula 3 on the other hand is in a lot more trouble if this gets off the ground, since CAMS has got no reason to keep it running and it has struggled to get remotely good grids for years now.
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Old 2 Jun 2017, 10:02 (Ref:3738102)   #80
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Mixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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So the engine will cost half that of the total car? Interesting. Will need dedicated engine technicians to run those donks at each round as well. Interesting decision to run those instead of what is readily available and able to achieve the same power for less than half the cost and no need for dedicated track support.
It doesn't really stack up for people to build brand new engines, surely the point of this is for people to buy ex-VASC engines like DVS teams to, surely they are not paying $150k for engines.

But I guess if someone wants to buy one of these, NOW then there's a number.
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Old 2 Jun 2017, 10:09 (Ref:3738103)   #81
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It doesn't really stack up for people to build brand new engines, surely the point of this is for people to buy ex-VASC engines like DVS teams to, surely they are not paying $150k for engines.

But I guess if someone wants to buy one of these, NOW then there's a number.
2nd hand which is sold rebuilt is still over 100. The coyote in the ft5000 for example will be approx 35k complete, 45 maximum to achieve the same power as the supercar engine and won't require track support and rebuilds will be half as often.

On top of that, sourcing the parts to maintain a supercar engine is significantly more than the road donk, and easy enough to do self maintenance with the road engines.
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Old 2 Jun 2017, 10:43 (Ref:3738106)   #82
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Ospi should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridOspi should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Also I put money on it costing closer to 400k in reality. Carbon tub, drive train capable of handling supercar torque, full motec electronics and the supercars engine cannot be done for 300k.

Remember how cheap the cotf was said to be when announced?

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Old 2 Jun 2017, 12:34 (Ref:3738117)   #83
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V8 Supercars cant be going too badly if they are now owners of Superutes, Supercars, Super2, and now Super5000. They just have to be careful now it doesn't lead to problems and get ahead of themselves, if they were struggling though like some say they wouldn't be running utes and 5000
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Old 2 Jun 2017, 13:16 (Ref:3738126)   #84
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if they were struggling though like some say they wouldn't be running utes and 5000
They are hardly running either of them at the moment are they, where are the Utes?

Payce are funding the 5000 so far anyway aren't they?
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Old 2 Jun 2017, 13:31 (Ref:3738129)   #85
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Yes, Payce are funding it and Supercars just owns the IP and the management rights.
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Old 2 Jun 2017, 19:00 (Ref:3738204)   #86
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*looks at Super5000 car*

.............Seriously?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdEQmpVIE4A

If I want to see old-school looking cars, there's the historic racing. I'd rather see the FT5000 car than this - preferably with an airbox designed for efficiency instead of one designed solely to be a throwback.

I want to see a MODERN incarnation of Formula 5000, not a throwback. So while I'd still like to see them both work(hey, I may not prefer it but any new form of racing is ultimately fine by me if they can make it work), if I had to make a chose, I'd support FT5000.

And don't give me the "low drag/downforce" excuse for the Super5000 car; Modern aero can do that just as well, probably better.

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I have a feeling that both series will now fail.
Unless they want the series to be Australia's equivalent to IndyCar, which I'm not sure anyone can make happen, I think any modern F5000 series needs to run a stock block engine to be viable.
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Old 2 Jun 2017, 21:46 (Ref:3738236)   #87
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Originally Posted by one five five View Post
Car looks fabulous, a shame about it's origins

FT5000 and Super5000 have no hope of getting up in any fashion unless there is a merger or Lambden gives in.

FT5000 or Super5000 would only help F4, not hinder it. Infact i think F4 only remains viable in the long-term if there is a proper open-wheel series above it.
Agree with you on all that, maybe some kind of merger might work but it would depend on how similar the performance is I guess - there were different manufacturers back in the day with F5000 of course so it might work.

This car for example is very heavy for an open wheeler at 850kg as quoted in the article but maybe that's fully fuelled and with a driver? The FT5000 was quoted as 670kg or thereabouts I think, which is kinda where you'd expect a stock block 5.0 litre open wheeler to be weight wise.

According to the Fox sports article, the Super5000 project dates back to 2015 so maybe it was a case of different people having a similar idea at a similar time but the way it has all unfolded has been a great shame but I guess not the first and probably not the last time that similar ideas have been mooted at the same time in motorsport.

For sure, this car looks far more retro than the other car. Whether either series can get off the ground remains to be seen.
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Old 2 Jun 2017, 22:52 (Ref:3738243)   #88
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PS2244 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I really hope this doesn't devolve into a CART v Indycar like war that'll destroy both categories
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Old 3 Jun 2017, 00:40 (Ref:3738248)   #89
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Compromised should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Designing an open wheeler around parts from the Supercars is surely practical/modular/etc. but it seems they have really hamstrung the car itself and what it could have been
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Old 3 Jun 2017, 02:03 (Ref:3738252)   #90
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D.R.T. should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridD.R.T. should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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According to the Fox sports article, the Super5000 project dates back to 2015 so maybe it was a case of different people having a similar idea at a similar time but the way it has all unfolded has been a great shame but I guess not the first and probably not the last time that similar ideas have been mooted at the same time in motorsport.
The Fox sports article was written by James Phelps - the same guy who prints V8SC press releases on a weekly basis. Not sure how much weight you are going to put in Mr Phelps timeline there.

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Supercars didn't release it. Their logo is, but this seems to be from PAYCE/Wilson, and it isn't even on Supercars website.
On the V8 website, their socials, their journalist writing puff pieces and their logo's all over it. Are you still denying their drive behind this Mixer?

Another example of v8sc trying to prevent Australian motorsport from developing and progressing
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Old 3 Jun 2017, 02:57 (Ref:3738254)   #91
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They are hardly running either of them at the moment are they, where are the Utes?

Payce are funding the 5000 so far anyway aren't they?
Always a naïve knocker, it takes time to build something properly. How long did CoTF take. This is CoTF for utes.
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Old 3 Jun 2017, 05:29 (Ref:3738264)   #92
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The Fox sports article was written by James Phelps - the same guy who prints V8SC press releases on a weekly basis. Not sure how much weight you are going to put in Mr Phelps timeline there.
Hence the use of the word "maybe" in my post. I put about as much faith in lack of bias or detail information provided by Mr Phelps as I do in any other journalist - pretty much zero. In the same way that a broken watch has the right time twice a day, sometimes - rarely journalists do get it right.

I suspect that the question of who came up with the idea first will probably just end up in a "he said, she said" scenario with nothing definitive. It is interesting that Mr Lambden was on the V8 Commission and that the FT5000 was his next project - wonder if there was some discussion about it back then and the two parties headed off in their different directions?
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Old 3 Jun 2017, 05:40 (Ref:3738265)   #93
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Does Lola get any royalties from this Super5000 concept ?

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I really hope this doesn't devolve into a CART v Indycar like war that'll destroy both categories
Difference is there was 85 years of American open-wheel history (and in-fighting) which allowed the two series to at least hold themselves above water while the war took place.

Australian open-wheel racing as a local spectacle has been dead since 1979, it was an uphill battle to get one going, there will be no war if there is two categories trying to start-up, there will just be nothing that ever happened on either side.

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Always a naïve knocker, it takes time to build something properly. How long did CoTF take. This is CoTF for utes.
The Ute concept has nothing in common with what the Supercar CotF was all about
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Old 3 Jun 2017, 07:52 (Ref:3738275)   #94
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V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Designing an open wheeler around parts from the Supercars is surely practical/modular/etc. but it seems they have really hamstrung the car itself and what it could have been
It's only hamstrung in that it doesn't have underbody aero, which they can always add later if they want to make it do faster laptimes.

Whether it's suboptimal to have the gearset in front of the diff, rather than behind the diff like a normal formula car transaxle, is another thing. But Porsche 911s corner beautifully for having the entire engine in the wrong place, so I am sure Supashock will have designed around that and setup the f:r balance of the S5000 properly.

Personally I think the Judd V10 LMP1 (or the standard Zytek 3.5 V8 Formula 3000 engine) should be the engine of choice for either series for a techy, exotic sound but I can also see the appeal of an American style V8.

Those bemoaning engine costs seem to ignore that Dunlop and Kumho series runners have no complaints about the cost and mileage of the Supercars specification motors. I agree the Coyote is more rational when speccing low running capital costs, but motorsport is not rational.

Any motor is a vast improvement on the trusty Holden Buick V6 of Formula Holden which sounds, frankly, like a wet fart!

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Old 3 Jun 2017, 19:47 (Ref:3738416)   #95
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Traction control? No thanks.
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Old 3 Jun 2017, 23:52 (Ref:3738437)   #96
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porsche91722 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridporsche91722 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridporsche91722 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Couple of questions for those who may be in the know.......
Who's gonna be driving them? Existing Supercar drivers? That would make an interesting sideshow.
How come, yet again, there's going to be an Australia only category, if indeed it actually happens? With the multitude of open wheel categories across the planet, why do we feel the need, here in Aus to have our own class of cars that cannot race anywhere else in the world?
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Old 4 Jun 2017, 01:22 (Ref:3738440)   #97
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With the multitude of open wheel categories across the planet, why do we feel the need, here in Aus to have our own class of cars that cannot race anywhere else in the world?
Well it's Australian made, that's good right?

If you were to simply import Indy Lights or Formula 2 cars, there would no Australian content.


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Old 4 Jun 2017, 02:29 (Ref:3738443)   #98
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Well it's Australian made, that's good right?

If you were to simply import Indy Lights or Formula 2 cars, there would no Australian content.


"At least it's not another ruddy Dallara!"
There hasn't been any Australian content in Australian open-wheel racing since Formula Holden/Brabham/4000 died out

Indy Lights is probably a good idea.

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Originally Posted by porsche91722
With the multitude of open wheel categories across the planet, why do we feel the need, here in Aus to have our own class of cars that cannot race anywhere else in the world?
Nowhere else is the world does affordable non-entry level open wheel (perhaps aside from Japan). We have to do it ourselves unless we want the limit of local open-wheelers to be nothing more than a ladder step?

We do sedans ourselves, why not open-wheelers?
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Old 4 Jun 2017, 02:48 (Ref:3738444)   #99
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There hasn't been any Australian content in Australian open-wheel racing since Formula Holden/Brabham/4000 died out
Yes, it's a pity.

A carbon tub, despite being "so exotic" is just a kevlar honeycomb carbon-fibre sandwich... It's not impossible, certainly something us 'strayans can do.

There are ways to do it cheaper, such as just a "flat pack" approach, cutting v-notches and folding it into shape and inserting carbon tubes along the folds instead of using a mould.
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Old 4 Jun 2017, 12:32 (Ref:3738558)   #100
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Yes, it's a pity.

There are ways to do it cheaper, such as just a "flat pack" approach, cutting v-notches and folding it into shape and inserting carbon tubes along the folds instead of using a mould.
Cool then they could be sold at IKEA complete with an allen key and an instruction book. Should be a lot less than $ 300,000.
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