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Old 27 Oct 2014, 15:38 (Ref:3469106)   #16
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Originally Posted by RED55 View Post
It was more to do with the German spec cars running different suspension tweeks which wasnt allowed in the BTCC version,but gave the German spec cars that extra performance. From the start the british cars were a step behind the STW version.

Supertouring go so complicated with different homologations it is what lead to a complete change of regs for the BTCC,
Well, but no. Both STW and BTCC from 95 used FIA homoligation, outside of that there were no techincal waviers as far as I know?

As you all say, both Peugeots in STW and BTCC where the same cars, with MSD being the customer team, and as always with customer teams, they get parts later, do less testing and so on, they will always be behind. And in that era of Supertouring if you were 3 months behind, you were 0.5 sec a lap behind.

On the other hand, if you look at Opel it was the factory team in Germany that built and ran the cars for STW, while in BTCC it was first RML and then from 97 Tripple-8 that built and ran the cars. So naturally here there were no customer team, and they both had great success. So two different things.

But looking at Audi, Richard Lloyd Racing ran the cars in BTCC, which at the time was a "customer team" but with close cooperation from Audi in Germany, still had great success, as did every other customer Audi team in the whole world. Same with BMW.
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Old 27 Oct 2014, 16:17 (Ref:3469117)   #17
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The Cavalier did well but the BTCC Vectra never did anything much except get a bit tasty in the wet. Or is my memory failing me?
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Old 27 Oct 2014, 21:48 (Ref:3469191)   #18
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In Europe it was never called the Cavalier, it was already called the Vectra.
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Old 27 Oct 2014, 22:15 (Ref:3469197)   #19
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In Europe it was never called the Cavalier, it was already called the Vectra.
It was mostly called the Vectra in Ireland too. But my point is the BTCC and STW GM challenge - if we want to put it in those terms - didn't see eye to eye. I remember reading of Cleland complaining of that in the Autocourse annual for either the 96 or 97 seasons. But it's awhile since I read the annual - maybe I misread what he said.
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Old 27 Oct 2014, 22:39 (Ref:3469207)   #20
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Am I right in saying that the technical regulations were slightly different between the stw and btcc? I heard one story saying they allowed things like flat bottoms in stw which weren't allowed in the btcc? Is that the case?
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Old 29 Oct 2014, 17:51 (Ref:3469780)   #21
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Who ran the German Peugeot? Was it Peugeot Sport (French) people?

BTW Interesting thread.
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Old 29 Oct 2014, 17:56 (Ref:3469782)   #22
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Yellow Peugeots were also used in Argentina:





This is TC2000?
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Old 31 Oct 2014, 01:52 (Ref:3470128)   #23
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What I recall is that the Pug had the horsepower and aero for straight line speed so it was ideal for some of the German tracks, but in the UK that didn't work. Also the UK team didn't have the biggest budget around either and probably didn't have some of the tweaks they had in Germany.
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Old 31 Oct 2014, 14:18 (Ref:3470250)   #24
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Peugeot were the Arrows of the BTCC. There a long time, close a few times, but the one that never quite made. Just wasn't meant to be it seems
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Old 2 Nov 2014, 20:43 (Ref:3470919)   #25
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Didn't Aiello test the BTCC 406 at some point, I know he tested the Renault Laguna when he first looked at coming across. Seem to recall him saying the car wasn't that different from the STW car, but I'm stretching my memory now!

Great discussion topic btw & very interesting reading
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Old 3 Nov 2014, 08:20 (Ref:3471091)   #26
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Well, but no. Both STW and BTCC from 95 used FIA homoligation, outside of that there were no techincal waviers as far as I know?

As you all say, both Peugeots in STW and BTCC where the same cars, with MSD being the customer team, and as always with customer teams, they get parts later, do less testing and so on, they will always be behind. And in that era of Supertouring if you were 3 months behind, you were 0.5 sec a lap behind.

On the other hand, if you look at Opel it was the factory team in Germany that built and ran the cars for STW, while in BTCC it was first RML and then from 97 Tripple-8 that built and ran the cars. So naturally here there were no customer team, and they both had great success. So two different things.

But looking at Audi, Richard Lloyd Racing ran the cars in BTCC, which at the time was a "customer team" but with close cooperation from Audi in Germany, still had great success, as did every other customer Audi team in the whole world. Same with BMW.

Teams building cars for respective championships could develop their own parts within the st regs. There was something on the suspension that was different between the cars in UK and Germany,some kind of multilink variation I think , I believe it was tested on the Uk cars but outlawed by the BTCC .

Ludo Lacroix (now 888 V8 tech boss in Aus) was the engineer that ran Aiello in STW and he followed him to Nissan in BTCC, a very clever engineer who helped unlock something in the STW 406 and took with him that suspension understanding to RML hence the Nissans form.

There wasnt any real controlled parts back then so the sky was the limit and Germany were probably spending 3 times the btcc budget.

For sure very interesting days from a technical point of view .
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Old 3 Nov 2014, 16:03 (Ref:3471220)   #27
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I have vauge memories of the Pug being off the pace throughout the season, only to be bang on the pace at the end of season race at Donnington - maybe the one that Mansell raced in? Meh, I'm not too sure of this. Perhaps someone else remembers.
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Old 3 Nov 2014, 16:11 (Ref:3471223)   #28
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The 406 was good in the wet. Harvey drove it well. Watts persistently struggled however. Can't remember if Radisich - Watt's replacement - made anything of that car. Of course Watts resurfaced in Australia ST in a 406 of BTCC livery and starting winning there before he promptly ran out of cash. Always thought it was a big pity he couldn't complete that season.
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Old 5 Nov 2014, 07:09 (Ref:3471742)   #29
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Teams building cars for respective championships could develop their own parts within the st regs. There was something on the suspension that was different between the cars in UK and Germany,some kind of multilink variation I think , I believe it was tested on the Uk cars but outlawed by the BTCC .

Ludo Lacroix (now 888 V8 tech boss in Aus) was the engineer that ran Aiello in STW and he followed him to Nissan in BTCC, a very clever engineer who helped unlock something in the STW 406 and took with him that suspension understanding to RML hence the Nissans form.

There wasnt any real controlled parts back then so the sky was the limit and Germany were probably spending 3 times the btcc budget.

For sure very interesting days from a technical point of view .
Yeah the Nissans ran a multilink system in the suspension, originating from the 4wd Nissan Primera rather then from the FWD Primera. However, the Nissan was already on form in 98 when Ried almost took the title from Rydell, and I do belive Nissan won the constructors title in 98. And it wasnt only RML that unlocked that potensial, also Team Dynamics did it remember.
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Old 5 Nov 2014, 07:36 (Ref:3471745)   #30
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very good points there about the nissan, I seem to remember the uk 406 having some engine issues because the engine block in those days on most cars was used as a stress member , The Uk version had flexing issus in the block which were later resolved , I think its after this MSD/Pug Uk approached Pug France about having the factory kit, they declined and PUG uk decided to pull out .

Pug Uk was like that all the way through BTCC , close but no cigar
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