Virgin - The discussion thread

[cds_uk]

It has occured to me that there has been very little talk about this team one way or the other since they arrived, lots about Lotus and HRT so i thought why not start something, how do you guys think they are doing, all a bit underwhelming this year, i think they have the best driver out of the three new teams in Glock but even he cant seem to do much with the new car, what happens if the updates dont improve it, even if they do i cant see them catching up to the back of the pack then surely Timo will think "whats the point" If at the end of the year Virgin have dropped further away than last year will Mr Branson pull the plug, will John Booth try to muddle on on his own, discuss.

[Marbot]

What Virgin needs is a good......wind tunnel.

Ironically, the main difference between a Red Bull and a Virgin is that Red Bull can make parts of its car smaller and floppier.

[cds_uk]

You do have to wonder if they have not really improved by the end of the year weather they may have to rethink the entirely on the lap top ethos, having said that are they in a position to do that as long as Wirth is heading up the tech side of things?

[duke_toaster]

Possibly, but let's see how the future of the team goes in all sorts of ways, but if Branson pulls the plug they're going to be in the Hispania situation if not worse.

Originally Posted by Marbot

Ironically, the main difference between a Red Bull and a Virgin is that Red Bull can make parts of its car smaller and floppier.

Sorry, had no option but to sig that

[kipper]

I'm not convinced that Richard Branson will the plug on the team; as I understand it, Virgin contributes little to the funding of the team. As a result of this, the exposure that the Virgin company can gain is probably of some value. The main problem is that the lack of performance may deter conventional sponsors.

[Marbot]

Isn't it the car company 'Marussia' that has a significant stake in Virgin Racing? Hence the team name, Marrusia Virgin Racing.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

What Virgin needs is a good......wind tunnel.

I thought was were Richard Branson came in...

[GTRMagic]

Mr Wirth has promised a lot, and delivered 3 chassis designs.. none of which has threatened a Red Bull, except when they get in the way while being lapped...

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I thought was were Richard Branson came in...

I think that he only buys aeroplanes. I don't think he makes them.

Marussia are now the biggest shareholder in the team (correct me if I'm wrong), so maybe they should be calling the shots now?

[Hawkwood]

It seems to going Pete Tong for Virgin as Hispania learn more about their car.
Both Hispanias just beat both Virgins in FP2, and by nearly a full second it seems.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I think that he only buys aeroplanes. I don't think he makes them.

Marussia are now the biggest shareholder in the team (correct me if I'm wrong), so maybe they should be calling the shots now?

They need to spend some money.

What changes have they made to the car? It still looks 'little' compared to everything else, which makes me think it's just a modified 2010 chassis?

It would be fair enough them continuing to muck around at the back if it wasn't for the fact that an excellent driver's F1 career was being terminally damaged in the process.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by chunterer

It would be fair enough them continuing to muck around at the back if it wasn't for the fact that an excellent driver's F1 career was being terminally damaged in the process.

No doubt Jenson Button felt much the same way about Honda.

[old man]

Have to agree about the wind tunnel. I have been very sceptical since day one that you can do it all by CFD and there have been discussion threads here and on other sections of the forum on the validity of the work done in this way.

In connection with my day job CFD is often used in building design for fire safety engineering and again I am very sceptical about the results obtained. I am, I know, somewhat old fashioned and I was interested to see if Nick Wirth's claims held up in practice and so far they are struggling. What did well in sportscar racing is up against totally different opposition in F1 and if I were John Booth I would now be hedging my bets.

[MrTTraces]

Virgin discussion thread... Not about a thread about Katie Price then

Seriously thou they are doing the best they can and hopefully the upgrades they add make a positive difference.

Not sure exactly how much Bready Branson is pumping in to the outfit but rest assured he'll want a return on his bucks so he will be pushing them to go forward.

[gwyllion]

The problem of Virgin Racing is not the lack of windtunnel testing, but the lack of experienced designers. Nick Wirth and his team has very little F1 experience. Lotus has Mike Gascoyne, who hired a lot of former Toyota employees, and HRT has Geoff Willis.

This winter Wirth Research invested a lot of time and resources to model the hydraulics and gearbox internals with CFD, in order to improve reliability. Lotus and HRT solved their reliability issues by buying a working solution from another team (Red Bull and Williams respectively).

Glock has already publicly questioned Virgin's policy of keeping costs low by using only computer technology rather than a wind tunnel to design and develop its F1 cars. "The success has been OK," he said, "but maybe we would develop even faster with computer simulation as well as a wind tunnel." Also missing at Virgin, he insisted, are truly experienced engineers. "That would bring us faster progress in aerodynamics," said Glock. "But it's hard to get good people to come to a small team. And it costs money."

source: http://formula-one.speedtv.com/artic...news-briefs91/

Virgin has a big update planned for Istanbul. The new package includes a higher nose, a new floor, a Red Bull-like exhaust, modified rear suspension and new wings.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Virgin has a big update planned for Istanbul. The new package includes a higher nose, a new floor, a Red Bull-like exhaust, modified rear suspension and new wings.

By then so will everyone else, Virgin need to make a double leap whereas the other teams only need to add upgrades to keep improving.

It's a flawed design concept, no single design method will work in isolation - look back at the trouble Williams had with their new wind tunnel a few years back which gave different figures than they got on track.

You need, CFD, Wind Tunnel, experience and the good old engineers gut feeling and imagination. Adrian Newey still designs from a drawing board which shows that you don't need a whizz bang system to acutally come up with the concepts, you just need to know what you are doing!

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

By then so will everyone else, Virgin need to make a double leap whereas the other teams only need to add upgrades to keep improving.

I doubt that HRT will have such a big update. Lotus will introduce a Red Bull style blown diffuser, which said to be worth around 8th.

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

It's a flawed design concept, no single design method will work in isolation - look back at the trouble Williams had with their new wind tunnel a few years back which gave different figures than they got on track.

I have not seen any reports that suggest that their CFD numbers don't correlate with the track performance. They are just not fast enough compared to their competitors.

BTW the weak performance of Ferrari this year is reported to be caused by wind tunnel correlation issues. So a wind tunnel is not necessarily better than CFD.

[gwyllion]

Glock repeats on http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90751 that Virgin needs experienced staff. He hopes that Pat Symonds can be of some help.

[Chiefy]

I'd be surprised to see Glock sticking around at Virgin beyond the end of the season - unless any significant improvements are made before that time. He was such a solid driver for Toyota. His talents look wasted here. I can actually see Hispania overhauling Virgin (again) before the year is out, especially with Liuzzi on board there. Liuzzi is no better than Glock, but I think he has more to prove.

If Glock were to leave at the end of the season, where would he go? Williams, maybe? Sauber, STR and Force India would all count as a 'promotion' of sorts, but Sauber has invested in promising young drivers, STR exists to do the same, and Force India has Hulkenberg waiting in the wings for when Sutil is given the boot.

Red Bull? :P

I don't want to see the team capitulate. But I think progress will be very slow, and hindered even more if the star driver walks.

[newlaprecord]

Its gettin ridiculous what Glock is doing, he should be the leader not the moaner of the team.

He criticises his team publicly and litteraly all the time a microphone is in his 2 metre radius. Its far from what I would call a pro. If you have some constructive to say say it to your team, dont say it to the press only to justfiy why you are so slow. (especially in the light of D'ambroiso's lap today)

[chunder]

To be fair to Glock, the car is a complete turd!

He was a regular challenger for points and would have expected after a learning year to be a bit quicker this year.

And looking at it, the car is no better than a pile of rubbish Hispania that is a refettled 2010 car!

Not good enough and fair enough to get stuffy in my eyes, he is a quality driver in my eyes.

[cds_uk]

If Symonds is already there as a consultant why not bring him in full time, it could only help. Glock is by far the biggest asset that the team has, the last thing they need is for him to become apathetic toward the whole operation. A lot depends on these upgrades but as has already been said everyone else will be bolting on new bits aswell, the best they can hope for is to pull away from HRT and to close up a bit on the rest of the field, cant see them racing anyone but themselves for the rest of the year though and thats a shame.

[medler]

Originally Posted by newlaprecord

Its gettin ridiculous what Glock is doing, he should be the leader not the moaner of the team.

He criticises his team publicly and litteraly all the time a microphone is in his 2 metre radius. Its far from what I would call a pro. If you have some constructive to say say it to your team, dont say it to the press only to justfiy why you are so slow. (especially in the light of D'ambroiso's lap today)

Maybe he's had enough of the lack of progress and has already spoken many times about his problems to those who run the team. And is now frustrated by the lack of progress from last year and compared to the others.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by cds_uk

If Symonds is already there as a consultant why not bring him in full time, it could only help.

They can't. He's banned until 2013.

[Knowlesy]

Glock is right in what he says surely? Virgin seem to make no progress ever. They couldn't even calculate the fuel tank correctly last season.

Their faith in CFD seems a bit unerring.