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Old 15 Apr 2002, 01:32 (Ref:260552)   #1
DavyboyLT1
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How Can F1 Be Made More Exciting?????

I'd suggest, from a technical standpoint, the following changes:

1. Reduction in downforce by 50%.

2. Return to slick tires.

3. Increase tire size by 25%.

Those 3 changes would (probably) allow the cars to run similar lap times to today, but would enable more passing. By decreasing aerodynamic grip, while increasing mechanical grip, cars could follow closer down the straights - get a tow, and pull off a pass under braking.

These changes could reduce the number of times that we see a driver close up on a competetor by 1 sec per lap, and then not be able to get past him.
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Old 15 Apr 2002, 01:37 (Ref:260554)   #2
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How can F1 be made more exciting?

Stop bending the rules for TGF and Ferrari.

Seriously, bring back the SLICKS!!!!

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Old 15 Apr 2002, 01:41 (Ref:260557)   #3
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Also introduce spec electronics. Computer geeks have no natural place in the pits, especially not changing settings while the cars are racing. Would kill traction and launch control, and narrow the gap between the best and worst engines (computers have a dramatic effect on the performance)

How about also completely outlawing those little add-on spoilers that crop up all over the cars, and those ugly... Whatever they are, those things in front of the radiator ducting. Also the diffusers. Just limit them two two-element spoilers, one front, one rear. And bring back the spark plates, those were so damn cool!

The aero changes would also dramatically reduce the aerodynamic wake off the back of cars, which would possibly make the biggest difference in allowing passing.

Getting rid of refueling would also force more overtaking on track.

And more and more this season, I'm starting to think, a single tire manufacturer. This Bridgestone/Ferarri arrangement is horrid for the racing.

Last edited by Lee Janotta; 15 Apr 2002 at 01:43.
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Old 15 Apr 2002, 02:04 (Ref:260565)   #4
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Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Also introduce spec electronics. Computer geeks have no natural place in the pits, especially not changing settings while the cars are racing. Would kill traction and launch control

How about also completely outlawing those little add-on spoilers that crop up all over the cars, and those ugly... Whatever they are, those things in front of the radiator ducting.

This Bridgestone/Ferarri arrangement is horrid for the racing.

Spec electronics would be good, but, you can't police it. CART in the US has even allowed traction control as of the start of this season.

Those ugly little things are called barge-boards. YUK, I agree!!!

I couldn't agree more on the Bridgestone/Ferrari issue. On todays SpeedChannel (US) broadcast they mentioned that the 2003 Ferrari was already being designed around the tyre and that each company has staff at each others plants. How about policing this kind of ****. I wonder if it would have been allowed if Williams would have pulled this off over Ferrari?
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Old 15 Apr 2002, 02:05 (Ref:260568)   #5
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Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Also introduce spec electronics. Computer geeks have no natural place in the pits, especially not changing settings while the cars are racing.
But then the Ferrari mechanics wouldn't have access to Reubens' "engine self-destruct switch" for when he's ahead of Mikey!

Seriously, though, your suggestions make a lot of sense.
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Old 15 Apr 2002, 02:16 (Ref:260583)   #6
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Spec electronics are the way to police it, I think. Let the FIA hire someone (Delphi, Visteon?) to design a system that can be adapted to all the engines in the series which simply doesn't have the capacity for things like launch and traction control and automatic shifting. I think that needs to be the direction in all series, rather than simply legalizing things. It's extremely detrimental to the sport, as much in it's spirit as the actual on-track performance. F1 drivers today... I won't argue how much skill it takes, but they don't have nearly as much to think about when they're racing as they used to.

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Old 15 Apr 2002, 02:26 (Ref:260588)   #7
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Ban all on board computers, reduce the projected frontal area of those huge rear wings, increase the minimum height of the front wings, bring back slicks, and instigate a more even distribution of cash from TV rights to the teams to help the tail enders like Minardi.
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Old 15 Apr 2002, 02:29 (Ref:260592)   #8
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Ah geez.... there's no appreciation for the computer nerds!
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Old 15 Apr 2002, 02:44 (Ref:260601)   #9
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Afraid not This is motor racing, not a computer game.
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Old 15 Apr 2002, 02:44 (Ref:260602)   #10
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Re: How Can F1 Be Made More Exciting?????

Quote:
Originally posted by DavyboyLT1
I'd suggest, from a technical standpoint, the following changes:

1. Reduction in downforce by 50%.

2. Return to slick tires.

3. Increase tire size by 25%.

Those 3 changes would (probably) allow the cars to run similar lap times to today, but would enable more passing. By decreasing aerodynamic grip, while increasing mechanical grip, cars could follow closer down the straights - get a tow, and pull off a pass under braking.

These changes could reduce the number of times that we see a driver close up on a competetor by 1 sec per lap, and then not be able to get past him.

I agree with only one point that you have stipulated, that is to return to slick tyres. But if the horsepower, revs, chasis & aeropackage of teams are not on an equal basis...still it dosen't make any difference.

Reduction in downforce by 50% ???

Downforce is needed for drivers to negotiate corners avoiding understeer and oversteer in which the most of the total downfoce generated on a car is at it's front & rear wings.

The percentage of downforce on the front wing will reduce by more than half if a car is directly behind another in a straight line.

Are you suggesting the cars to make do without wings? then we'll witness more of flying cars ....the rear wing of a car works like of the aeroplane wings whereby it lifts the plane up but of the opposite for a car it pushes the car down with the help of the diffuser to suck it further down.

Increase tyre size by 25%???

The tyres will be heavier so they will be more drag...

It's difficult to overtake in F1, because like what TGF had said previously..people who dosen't actually have the experience of driving F1 car won't know. Apart from being sucked when you behind someone in a straight, the total downforce is reduced on the front wing when you are near to a car infront and while negotiating a corner...so there's understeer to control.
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Old 15 Apr 2002, 02:52 (Ref:260605)   #11
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Originally posted by Valve Bounce
Afraid not This is motor racing, not a computer game.
Not to take the thread off-topic, but I recall that, during his first F1 season, Jacques Villeneuve actually "learned" some of the tracks that he was unfamiliar with by playing an F1 video game!!!!
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Old 15 Apr 2002, 02:56 (Ref:260607)   #12
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I agree with a couple of previously posted points:

Valve Bounce F1 could invert the F1 TV revenues. For example, first in the championship gets the least and last gets the most, cash wise.

Hey DavyboyLT1 couldn't 10 grams of iron filings in the intake take care of Reubens, "engine self-destruct switch"? JPM learned some of the F1 tracks the same way JV did. He stated so in an interview I saw awhile back.

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Old 15 Apr 2002, 03:08 (Ref:260616)   #13
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Hey DavyboyLT1 couldn't 10 grams of iron filings in the intake take care of Reubens, "engine self-destruct switch"?
Yeah....But they would still need some way of making it look like an accidental failure. Imagine this: Ferrari connects the brake bias adjustment knob in the cockpit to a release mechanism for the iron filings. Then Reubens gets a call from the pits "change your brake bias setting - 2 - rear, that's 2 - rear, Reubens"........
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Old 15 Apr 2002, 03:25 (Ref:260623)   #14
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Originally posted by DavyboyLT1


Not to take the thread off-topic, but I recall that, during his first F1 season, Jacques Villeneuve actually "learned" some of the tracks that he was unfamiliar with by playing an F1 video game!!!!
I know he did - I am a fan of Jacques from before he joined F1. However, learning the track with computer games is one thing, but dialing in the best driver, engine and chassis aids with a gifted computer guru is something else. I know that each member of any team is vry important, but I'd like to see the driver be the most important and competitively influential component. Not some g who sits in the office developing software and hardware be the deciding factor.

I really hope that the manufacturers chip in to buy out Kirsch, and then they can split the takings evenly. Teams like Minardi need a lot more money to keep development ongoing. It would be nice to see Minardi with a works BMW or Mercedes engine.
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Old 15 Apr 2002, 03:45 (Ref:260636)   #15
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The FIA should certainly compare their technical regulations with those of CART. CART always manages to have drivers/cars qualifying a heck of a lot closer together.

The only problem I see with eliminating the high-tech stuff is that F1 promotes itself as being the ultimate racing series (drivers and technology).

Of course, the whole electronics issue was discussed here: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=20831
F1: better or worse with electronics?
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Old 15 Apr 2002, 04:02 (Ref:260640)   #16
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what about your theories in which you started the thread? any arguements on what i have said in reply?
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Old 15 Apr 2002, 04:04 (Ref:260642)   #17
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Actually Davyboy, I brought up the subject of banning on board computers long before that thread, and this subject has been discussed at length in this forum many times before. Probably about a year or so ago. I have long been a proponent of banning on board computers. Rather than promoting F1 sa the ultimate racing series (drivers and technology), I would prefer that F1 offered a series where the best drivers competed. Full Stop. Sure we can improve technology to the point where cars can actually be braked by sensors located at the braking points, steered around corners by remote control from control towers, and so on. I'd rather see the drivers be fully in charge of the operation of an F1 car, changing gears, putting the power down on the road to gain maximum traction for acceleration, just for starters.
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Old 15 Apr 2002, 04:34 (Ref:260649)   #18
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Re: Re: How Can F1 Be Made More Exciting?????

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Originally posted by Jukebox
...if the horsepower, revs, chasis & aeropackage of teams are not on an equal basis...still it dosen't make any difference.
I'd agree with that.

Quote:
Reduction in downforce by 50% ???

Downforce is needed for drivers to negotiate corners avoiding understeer and oversteer in which the most of the total downfoce generated on a car is at it's front & rear wings.
I'm suggesting that increasing the mechanical grip (bigger tires) would be able to compensate for lessening downforce. Actually, my "set-up" would produce much faster speeds in slow corners and chicanes, where aerodynamic grip is less of a factor than mechanical grip.

Quote:
The percentage of downforce on the front wing will reduce by more than half if a car is directly behind another in a straight line.
I'm suggesting that smaller wings will disturb the air less, creating less turbulence for the following car.

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Are you suggesting the cars to make do without wings? then we'll witness more of flying cars ....the rear wing of a car works like of the aeroplane wings whereby it lifts the plane up but of the opposite for a car it pushes the car down with the help of the diffuser to suck it further down.
Not without wings, just smaller ones. There are hardly any truly fast corners on GP cicuits today, so aerodynamic grip isn't as important. Bigger tires increase grip at all speeds, whereas aerodynamic influence decreases as does speed.

Quote:
Increase tyre size by 25%???

The tyres will be heavier so they will be more drag...
Bigger tires won't add more weight to an F1 car (the teams use ballast right now to meet minimum weight specs). The bigger tires would create more drag, of course, but smaller wings could reduce drag by a compensatory amount.

Quote:
It's difficult to overtake in F1, because like what TGF had said previously..people who dosen't actually have the experience of driving F1 car won't know. Apart from being sucked when you behind someone in a straight, the total downforce is reduced on the front wing when you are near to a car infront and while negotiating a corner...so there's understeer to control.
Exactly. With less aerodynamic aids, and more mechanical grip, this situation would be mitigated to a certain extent. My set-up would produce a car that would create less air turbulence ("dirty air") for the following car, and more mechanical grip to pull off great overtaking manoeuvers.
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Old 15 Apr 2002, 04:53 (Ref:260653)   #19
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Actually Davyboy, I brought up the subject of banning on board computers long before that thread, and this subject has been discussed at length in this forum many times before. Probably about a year or so ago. I have long been a proponent of banning on board computers. Rather than promoting F1 sa the ultimate racing series (drivers and technology), I would prefer that F1 offered a series where the best drivers competed. Full Stop. Sure we can improve technology to the point where cars can actually be braked by sensors located at the braking points, steered around corners by remote control from control towers, and so on. I'd rather see the drivers be fully in charge of the operation of an F1 car, changing gears, putting the power down on the road to gain maximum traction for acceleration, just for starters.
Yeah, I figured that electronics have been discussed here before - it's a hot topic of debate in most forms of motorsport.

I agree - I'd prefer to see the drivers in control rather than the black box. TC should be "Toe Control", not "Traction Control".

By the same token, a lot of money people, and even fans, expect to see technological sophistication in F1. While you and I might like to see a return to carbs and (real) manual gearboxes, I just don't see it happening.

But.....we could look at Nascar for a moment. I'm not a huge fan of oval racing, myself, but Nascar has a HUGE following here in N.A. - with cars that are primitive compared to road cars, let alone F1 cars - because the competition is closer, and a good portion of the field has a reasonable chance of winning. Definitely something to consider.

As a sidenote: I can remember an F1 team boss (not sure who, though) suggesting that F1 could be contested without drivers!!!. That was back in the days of the fully-active Williams. I'm not sure if it was Frank that said that, but at that time he was of the opinion that a monkey could drive his car competetively!
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Old 15 Apr 2002, 08:19 (Ref:260713)   #20
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Re: Re: Re: How Can F1 Be Made More Exciting?????

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I'm suggesting that increasing the mechanical grip (bigger tires) would be able to compensate for lessening downforce. Actually, my "set-up" would produce much faster speeds in slow corners and chicanes, where aerodynamic grip is less of a factor than mechanical grip.
Having bigger tyres means the angle between the suspension arms had to be widen to compensate with the wider contact patch on the tyres. When this happens, it'll affect the air flows that came in contact with the arms in which there will be more drag and in return the engine will need more fuel. The whole aero package (side pods mainly) of the car needed to be revamped entirelly and it will definitely not benefit smaller teams financially as it'll be like starting from scratch.

Quote:
I'm suggesting that smaller wings will disturb the air less, creating less turbulence for the following car.
Smaller wings will make the car uncontrollable. To make do for more overtaking and slipstreaming, the current regulation of having only 3 layers of boards on the rear wing structure should be reduced to maybe 2. But straight line speed will definitely be affected.
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Old 15 Apr 2002, 08:56 (Ref:260732)   #21
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Make F1 car designs like they were in the 1980s. Big and bulky!

Hike up the minimum weight requirement.

Bring back slicks.

Take away emphasis on aerodynamics, whether it be mechanical grip or whatever else.

Get rid of on-board computers except for the most rudimentary needs. Traction control will have to stay because it's just too hard to police.

How about something to increase braking distances?
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Old 15 Apr 2002, 09:17 (Ref:260754)   #22
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How about something to increase braking distances?
Currently the braking distances can be changed according to track condition as well as if the track is wet.

When racing on a wet track, the grip on the brakes will be reduced/lighten so that it'll not be like so sudden.
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Old 15 Apr 2002, 09:53 (Ref:260783)   #23
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Similar suggestions were made in the 'F1 racing boring?' thread a few weeks ago.

However a new one that no-one has mentioned so far would be to have a minimum pitstop time. If all stops were for a minimum of 10 or 12 seconds then it would take away the opportunity to 'overtake' with a quicker pit stop. It shouldn't impact on overall race strategies, and people could still put in quick laps before making their stop to try and get ahead of car that has already pitted. It would though prevent a driver who can't pass on the track getting ahead not by their driving skill but because their mechanics can change a tyre quicker. I know F1 is about teams, but races really should be decided by drivers, not wheel changers.

Of course if this were to happen now, there would be virtually no overtaking at all in a race. Maybe that would give the kick up the arse to Max n'Bernie to change the rules to make the cars and tracks better suited to racing. At the moment because cars are 'overtaking' in pitstops there is a pretence that there is real racing going on.

It would be interesting, (probably quite depressing), to see figures from the last few years on overtaking on the track against 'overtaking' in pitstops; particularly amongst the front runners.
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Old 15 Apr 2002, 11:04 (Ref:260840)   #24
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By the same token, a lot of money people, and even fans, expect to see technological sophistication in F1. While you and I might like to see a return to carbs and (real) manual gearboxes, I just don't see it happening.
No we won't see it happening , not in our lifetime.
If I remember correctly, I think I was the first one who suggested that both on-board computers and batteries should be banned in F1 cars, and initially I got a bit of stick for it.
Hoever, we don't really know what the computers control on cars anymore. Occasionally, we read about the electronic management system being tested for the controls on the gears, the clutch(es) and the differential, and the balance of the car. It does make you wonder what the heck the on-board computer really does, and how it could be restricted. The idea of just traction control and launch control is now history as more and more of the car's function during racing is controlled or affected by the on-board computers. The effectiveness of the car's pace round a track is no longer just a function of the capability of the driver - it is very much dependent on the capability of the computer guru. How good is the computer guy that Ferrari pinched off McLaren? Is this the real reason for Ferrari's ascendancy?
I know I am boring everyone to death again.

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Old 15 Apr 2002, 11:14 (Ref:260858)   #25
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What you are expressing is just a bias against computer engineering over traditional engineering. It's always been the case that the biggest difference is in the design and preapration of the car - it's just that nowadays electronics are part of that process. Having a really well built chassis is a driver aid. Running the best tyres is a driver aid. Lowering the centre of gravity is a driver aid. These old fashioned driver aids sit well with the retro fans, whereas computer enhancements (an inescapable element in virtually all modern machines) do not. I'm suprised that some of the luddites can bear to discuss F1 on a computer! The difference between drivers is still evident on race day.
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