[Team] Team Lotus to confirm name and Renault bits but Grp Lotus start Norfolk Civil War?

[ECW Dan Selby]

Sounds like Hunt's not overly happy with Mr Fernandes.

Quite surprising. But it's a bit of a better insight now.

Selby

[Matador]

When it comes down to the bottom of things, it's all about money isn't it? Even for David Hunt.

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally Posted by jab

However, I think it is only right that if Group Lotus wish to enter, he should stand aside, because Group Lotus are Lotus, while he's ultimately just a Malaysian businessman trading off the Lotus name to help his own team stand out in what is a tough paddock

Why should he stand aside? He's the one who's done all the hard work to get the Lotus name back into F1 in the first place, and there was no real evidence that Group Lotus were keen on having any involvement in F1 until this year. What a coincidence. Lotus Racing, as they currently are, have worked incredibly hard this year to prove that they are a serious racing team, and what they've achieved in a short space of time is quite remarkable. If they have legally acquired the rights to use the Team Lotus name, then they have every right to fight for it - and I suspect that if they don't it will be for political reasons.

And, without knowing the ins and outs of their situation, doesn't it rather seem that Group Lotus are taking on a little too much right now? Someone should tell them that they don't need to do absolutely everything all at once.

[bella]

spot on, mrs ralf. if fernandes steps aside, f1 would lose the rare thing - an enthusiastic businessman willing to throw his money into the motorsport black hole. for the sake of group lotus trying to become ferrari in 6 months. it's about time the malaysian government sent round some heavies to point out how dumb this is making everyone look.

[jab]

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

Why should he stand aside? He's the one who's done all the hard work to get the Lotus name back into F1 in the first place

He was going to enter F1 anyway regardless of whether it was going to be called Lotus or 1Malaysia. Proton/Lotus just happened to agree to sponsor them. He has worked hard to get his team into F1 but it's got little directly to do with Lotus, other than title sponsorship, which Group Lotus now no longer want to continue

If you want to cite inspiration, then you have to look at Litespeed, who were the first ones to suggest bringing back the Lotus name, well before Fernandes

And I'm not convinced by what David Hunt is saying. While he was entitled to protect the rights to the Team Lotus name while Team Lotus wasn't in F1, the game changes when you move them into F1. There was a good article by I think Joe Saward a few weeks ago which explained that actually they don't have the right to use the name in F1

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

We can mock and scoff Peter Windsor to our heart's content (yes, we know his latest attempt at setting up a team didn't work, but his track record prior to that was admirable), it's good to hear the Team Lotus side of the story now.

Not mocking or scoffing, just tweaking his nose... arguably Mr Windsor became more famous for his involvement in the ill fated USF1 franchise than his many other exploits.

The discussion still begs the question of what happens to 1Malaysia if the Lotus brand is not available to them?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by jab

I'm not convinced by what David Hunt is saying. While he was entitled to protect the rights to the Team Lotus name while Team Lotus wasn't in F1, the game changes when you move them into F1. There was a good article by I think Joe Saward a few weeks ago which explained that actually they don't have the right to use the name in F1

I don't understand. If one is entitled to protect the rights to the Team Lotus name while Team Lotus wasn't in F1, how does game change when you move them into F1? If you legally have the rights that's the bottom line.

[E.B]

To me it sounds like Group Lotus have been a bit slack in their due diligence checks over what they were buying and what they were not getting as part of the manufacturer. The reality is that most manufacturer teams have always run their F1 operations out of a seperate business, similar to RenaultF1 (when Renault owned it).

It reminded me in a way of the time when Ford were well down the path of purchasing Ferrari..... until they realised that one of the main reasons for their interest in the intended purchase, the Ferrari Motor Racing operation, was an independant business not included in the sale. So Ford pulled out of the deal and built the GT40 out of spite almost, throwing money at it until it beat Ferrari and won Le Mans.

[jab]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I don't understand. If one is entitled to protect the rights to the Team Lotus name while Team Lotus wasn't in F1, how does game change when you move them into F1? If you legally have the rights that's the bottom line.

I think it was something down to the terms of the deal. Not quite sure exactly what it is. Legal jargon

I can't find the article itself, though

[Belatti]

I know nothing about the matter but I imagine that Fernandez used the name as hype, the same way he could have used Brabham, Matra or Tyrrell. The thing is he never asked the right people before naming his team...

If you ask me, the way the team is leaded it doesnt deserve to use the sacred Lotus name.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by E.B

To me it sounds like Group Lotus have been a bit slack in their due diligence checks over what they were buying and what they were not getting as part of the manufacturer. The reality is that most manufacturer teams have always run their F1 operations out of a seperate business, similar to RenaultF1 (when Renault owned it).

It reminded me in a way of the time when Ford were well down the path of purchasing Ferrari..... until they realised that one of the main reasons for their interest in the intended purchase, the Ferrari Motor Racing operation, was an independant business not included in the sale. So Ford pulled out of the deal and built the GT40 out of spite almost, throwing money at it until it beat Ferrari and won Le Mans.

Exactly. Nothing strange there. Hunt tries to make it sound as if it is a complete anomaly.

Originally Posted by Belatti

I know nothing about the matter but I imagine that Fernandez used the name as hype, the same way he could have used Brabham, Matra or Tyrrell. The thing is he never asked the right people before naming his team...

If you ask me, the way the team is leaded it doesnt deserve to use the sacred Lotus name.

I concur.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Originally Posted by Belatti

I know nothing about the matter but I imagine that Fernandez used the name as hype, the same way he could have used Brabham, Matra or Tyrrell. The thing is he never asked the right people before naming his team...

If you ask me, the way the team is leaded it doesnt deserve to use the sacred Lotus name.

Disagree.

How could Tony Fernandes have done a better job then? To be quite honest, this Lotus carnation has done a credible job given the limited time they had to prepare the car, and also compare them to how they were in 1993/94. I think you'll find there's not too much difference, performance wise.

But they've done nothing to discredit or disrespect the Lotus name.

Selby

[bella]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

Disagree.

How could Tony Fernandes have done a better job then? To be quite honest, this Lotus carnation has done a credible job given the limited time they had to prepare the car, and also compare them to how they were in 1993/94. I think you'll find there's not too much difference, performance wise.

But they've done nothing to discredit or disrespect the Lotus name.

Selby

sactly. the final years of lotus was a shoddy mess. this lot are professional, hard working and really, the guys who are working their backsides off to improve the car with the resources they have aren't wronging the name in the slightest.

i was skeptical at the start too - though majorly reassured when fernandes came on board after the whole litespeed shenanigans. ever since i've been nothing but impressed by the tone of their press releases, their constant expansion and staff recruitment drives and the fact that fernandes is still hanging around as well and just as enthusiastic as he was at the start.

most of the doubt seems to be based on the fact that the money and ownership is malaysian - well, look whats happened with virgin/manor with british money. personally i don't care where the finance is coming from in this case - the jobs being done properly and it's going to be done properly as well. i've heard plenty of waffle and nonsense about motorsport in my time and lotus racing are backing it up with actions as well as noise.

also many teams and organisations have owner companies that aren't named after the team competing. it doesn't mean anything, it's just a way of managing finance.

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally Posted by Belatti

I know nothing about the matter but I imagine that Fernandez used the name as hype, the same way he could have used Brabham, Matra or Tyrrell. The thing is he never asked the right people before naming his team...

It seems to me like he asked exactly the right people - I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding was that David Hunt didn't initially want him to use the 'Team Lotus' name, so he obtained a licence from Group Lotus to call the team Lotus Racing. Then once he'd got the team up and running and established as a serious outfit, he went back to David Hunt to acquire 'Team Lotus'. If my interpretation of events is correct, it seems as if he's done everything right but it's now put some noses out of joint at Group Lotus because they appear to think they have a God-given right to use that name in Formula One. At this stage it's all politics, to a degree that's depressing even for F1.

[strider]

I've just read through last two or three pages of this and almost all I wish to do is second bella's two posts.

The only other point is that as long as the litigation stays over here I don't doubt that David Hunt's right to the Team Lotus name will be sustained, but if somehow the litigation process gets moved over to Malaysia then I think he's sunk.

[bella]

looking back at something else that's made people comment - i think the use of "lotus racing" in the press release from renaultsport and also even from lotus racing themselves would have been a bit of a mistake - the former would make the journalists go "ah ha, the contract is solely with lotus racing, so what happens when they don't keep the name", and considering that their future may lay in an art grand prix like commercial linkup with group lotus it'd be a bit silly to wind them up as well.

diplomatic solution - use name of malaysian owning company. indicates that no matter what goes on in the courts, the agreement with renault stands. until group lotus get a foot in the door and tear up the contract

[NeilB]

I for one was quite cynical about the Lotus team when the FIA announced that they would get the final slot, thinking that they were going to just use the name so they could get sponsorship and make their dream of going racing a lot easier.

But they have done the old team proud, even more so then the final years of Team Lotus back in 1993/1994, where it was clear that someone should just put the team out of its misery whilst going through its death-throws.

It's just such a shame that Lotus cars/Proton have realised that they missed the boat with David Hunt and are turning this into a rather sorry and confusing argument for all concerned. I hope that it is Fernandes that comes out on top as he has shown that he cares about not only the brand, but also the history that cokes with it.

[Teretonga]

My take on the whole matter now is that Hunt had the rights to use Team Lotus but Group Lotus had disputed it but had no legal basis for doing so.

Now that Tony had purchased the rights to use the the name Team Lotus the Group lotus decision to use $20 million of what is effectively Malaysian tax payer money to sponsor the Renault team (now to be called Lotus Renault) in an effort to stymie tony fernadez's Team Lotus is simply pathetic and unethical.

Its just a bunch of sad people trying to use their money steal what is effectively not theirs from someone (David Hunt) who has the legal and proper rights to the property.

I don't mind having two Lotus Renualt teams in F1, although it will probably confuse casual viewers but maybe thats what has to happen to sort the whole mess out.

However if Tony is not going to fight Group Lotus or use the property he should give the rights back to David Hunt.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I don't mind having two Lotus Renualt teams in F1, although it will probably confuse casual viewers but maybe thats what has to happen to sort the whole mess out.

Unfortunately, perhaps, I believe that would not be allowed.

Originally Posted by Teretonga

However if Tony is not going to fight Group Lotus or use the property he should give the rights back to David Hunt.

Completely agree, even though I think that in that case David Hunt will have had a very raw deal.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by strider

Unfortunately, perhaps, I believe that would not be allowed..

[I]If it is not allowed then the FIA is going to have to make a decision about who has the legitimate right to use the name. That could make a mockery of the civil court proceedings.

If I was going to give it to one I would give it to Fernandez. He has the legal right to Team Lotus, has also already set and run as lotus racing so has a precedent over group Lotus. The goup has no current mechanical input into design and construction so while the team may be called Lotus Renault the cars may have to be called Renault-Lotus.... or Genii Lotus...Genii Renault or Renault Genii ..... Lada Renault or Renault Lada if Petrov stays...

The rest I think we do agree on, but I would be sad to see Group Lotus take the precedence on this.

just as an afterthought....
When marlboro were into sponsoring anything that moved in F1 through their national companies we had Marlboro stickers on Onyx, Dallara, Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, McLaren, Frank Williams (back in the Iso Marlboro days).

There would have nbeen no objection to entering the cars as Marlboro McLaren, Marlboro Dallara, Marlboro Alfa Romeo, Marlboro Ferrari..... So why not four Lotus Renault's on the grid... or should the second team be Renault-Proton......

[GTRMagic]

Can all the Malaysian millions please stand in a corner, make friends, and go sponsor a single team instead of almost all of them?

Here

[bella]

sod that, the comment about marussia sniffing around virgin just below the main article is far more interesting...

[Wims]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

[I]If it is not allowed then the FIA is going to have to make a decision about who has the legitimate right to use the name. That could make a mockery of the civil court proceedings....

No, FIA wouldnt determine who has the legitimate right to use the name, there's rarely anything legit about FIA decisions. Civilian laws are obviously more important than FIA regulations. But the civil court proceedings could potentially make a mockery of the FIA

[Joe Taylor]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Can all the Malaysian millions please stand in a corner, make friends, and go sponsor a single team instead of almost all of them?

Here

They really aren't trying, there are only Malaysian links to 4 teams right now. Perhaps The Malaysian tourist board should get involved in F1 again like when they sponsored Stewart in the 1990s and Minardi in 2002.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Can all the Malaysian millions please stand in a corner, make friends, and go sponsor a single team instead of almost all of them?

Here

So given the nature of the products does that mean Virgin will remain 'hard chargers' all season?