The booing of Vettel & is Vettel a great?

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by bella

point missed.

when someone appears in motorsport age 15 or 16, they immediately have a couple of blokes per car working FOR them. they have to learn man management skills that most people don't get the hang of till they're in their late 20s or early 30s. especially when they're part of a f1 young driver scheme, they need to turn up in exactly the right frame of mind at exactly the right time. they can't just turn up in a strop. sometimes they're making media appearances, and representing a brand. at sixteen years old.

would you honestly be able to step into a f1 drive and be the perfect sportsman and man manager in your late teens? well, sebastian vettel came pretty damn close to it. if you're not going to forgive him for losing his temper once or twice when he'd invested himself entirely in a race then that's just plain daft.

i (like quite a few other people on tenths) know people who worked with him when he was 18 at the oldest and they thought he was a great guy, and a great person to work with. he always gets the most from the guys he works with. frankly, i don't know many people who can do that in any walk of life, let alone motorsport and in their early 20s.

it's nothing to do with fame or power getting to his head. when you're an elite sportsperson you really commit everything you have mentally and physically into a race. you mean, he got out of the car fired up on adrenaline and made a few wrong judgements? have you *seen* some of the crap that gp2 and gp3 drivers are pedalling on twitter this season??

I'm going to humbly disagree with you on that one.

Originally Posted by bella

you know what people should do instead of boo? be completely silent. that's WAY more creepy and a far bigger mindfudge than booing someone

THAT would be EPIC!

I actually just finished watching the race several minutes ago, and it was pretty disgraceful. Publicly humiliating someone is just low...

[bella]

it's definitely unfamiliar ground for circuit motorsport fans. for anyone who's been to a football match (that's football, not hand egg ) booing, singing and chanting are just a part of spectating a game, it's nothing to do with the "masses".

i guess we're just used to circuit motorsport fans being seen but not heard

[chunder]

You guys should come to a big stock car race, or NASCAR, booing and cheering is all part of the show. Montoya and Busch have had it for years! As has Johnson coz he wins a lot.

I remember going to a historic meeting once and booing Frank Sytner when he won (as usual) and everyone turned round and looked!

Cricketists get it all the time, as do most sportsmen.

As for Seb, sme people think he is doing amazing things right now, I guess he could, But he does very little for me on track I am afraid. Winning from pole and leading every lap might be satisfying for him and some people, but this is supposed to be racing and the times whe he does it he is usually sublime, but not always, he is young but no way the finished article.

I can't remember the Toro Rosso years, whether he was demonic there, most people remember THAT race. Cant remember much else.

I remember Fernando and Fisichella doing amazing stuff in Minardi and Webber to some extent. But that was a different time. Before Sebs time.

I don't think he is exceptional, the best of the current crop yes, but comparable to Senna, Clark, Stewart, Emerson, Lauda? On numbers yes, but to most like Schumacher, no.

A lot will disagree, thats what makes forums like this great as some will agree.

[Aysedasi]

Yep, some will - agree that is....

[numbersix]

I remain unconvinced that Vettel is great. Adrian Newey is great and the boy wonder is doing well riding that greatness. He's lucky, as some others have been lucky in the past to have a car a chimp could drive to victory.

If Webber had been replaced by Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton or even Button, I think Vettel would be showing two fingers more often than one. Winning titles at a time when the main players - Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes - have second rate cars is no test of a true champion.

Alonso pushing an under-par Ferrari to its limits and getting podiums is deeply worthy of the word "great", whether you like them or not.

But the booing is bad - anywhere, including Silverstone. It says more about the booer than the booed.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by numbersix

I remain unconvinced that Vettel is great. Adrian Newey is great and the boy wonder is doing well riding that greatness. He's lucky, as some others have been lucky in the past to have a car a chimp could drive to victory.

If Webber had been replaced by Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton or even Button, I think Vettel would be showing two fingers more often than one. Winning titles at a time when the main players - Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes - have second rate cars is no test of a true champion.

Alonso pushing an under-par Ferrari to its limits and getting podiums is deeply worthy of the word "great", whether you like them or not.

But the booing is bad - anywhere, including Silverstone. It says more about the booer than the booed.

Vettel is a 'great' driver. Part of that 'greatness' is that he spends more time than any other current driver going through all of the tiny details with his engineer and other members of the team, as did Schumacher. Vettel's car is not the same as Webber's car where it matters, and that's in the detailed improvements in the car that Vettel is able to turn into better performance on the track. Put anyone in Webber's car, right now, and they will suck big time, because the devil is always in the detail.

As for the booing, it's the uninformed being infantile. If you want to boo something, go see a pantomime.

[Marbot]

I should also add that the current cars are closer in performance than they have ever been in the history of F1, so I'm not buying the 'second-rate' car thing for one second. If we go back into the past and look at the 1988 season, for example, then you might say that all of the grid, except for just two cars, were 'second-rate' and that didn't change very much for previous seasons to that one, or later seasons to that one.

Ironically, the one thing that the Red Bull car is benefiting from is the return to Pirelli's 2012 spec tyres.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Vettel is a 'great' driver. Part of that 'greatness' is that he spends more time than any other current driver going through all of the tiny details with his engineer and other members of the team, as did Schumacher. Vettel's car is not the same as Webber's car where it matters, and that's in the detailed improvements in the car that Vettel is able to turn into better performance on the track. Put anyone in Webber's car, right now, and they will suck big time, because the devil is always in the detail.

As for the booing, it's the uninformed being infantile. If you want to boo something, go see a pantomime.

+1. Great post.

[Catingaround]

Interesting article on Webber -vs- Vettel and RBR reliability issues http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/groups/f1...y-at-red-bull/

It is interesting that so many fans only register the Mark Webber mishaps and reliability issues when in fact they both see similar failure rates.

Vettel: 40 issues, 8 leading to DNF
Webber: 45 issues, 3 leading to DNF

[MarkG]

This thread title should maybe be...
"I love Vettel because / I hate Vettel because.

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by Marbot

... Put anyone in Webber's car, right now, and they will suck big time, because the devil is always in the detail.

No. It's because their feet wouldn't reach the pedals.

I am obligued by your opinion, and retain my own. Sorry, but I believe he has yet to prove his worth against worthy drivers currently in generally inferior cars.

[Bononi]

I don't hate/like Vettel, what bothers me is the dominance and the perspective of having boring races.

The discussion of his greatness and the superiority of the car he drives is relative and personal.

Sticking to facts, he's unique. What he achieved so far at his age, puts him above any other driver in F1 history, no one can deny that. Keeping this rate, TGF records and titles will be second best in history books, and the man retired recently !

People keep saying about the car superiority, but history proves that champions are made in the best machinery. Even the most popular hero said once, when he was with a inferior car that he would race for free in the best team at the time. Taking out the obvious, that says a lot. He won his three WDCs in a superior car. Oh yes, he had rivals in the same conditions at least in one season, but he lost others also.

I'm not defending Vettel or RBR, I'm just pointing out that this is what always happened in F1 and it will go on. Despite being a World Driver Championship, F1 is about teams and drivers combined to do their best.

What about Jacques, Mansell, Prost or Rosberg in unbeatable cars/teams, and they are all champions to everyone's eyes...

Like the loser's story side, put the blame on RBR to make a superior car. The truth is that is everybody else's fault in the grid to fail of making the same. That's competition at its best.

Ah, Formula One... 42 years watching/cheering/crying/loving/hating is taking its toll on me.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Marbot

........ If you want to boo something, go see a pantomime.

agree. Oh, wait... 'tis.

[Aysedasi]

I'll accept Vettel is a 'great' driver. No real problem with that. As I said before, 'extraordinary', no, personally I don't think so. I think Alonso is a great driver too. I think Hamilton could be a great driver, but I (again personally) don't think he's attained that status just yet. But that's got precious little to do with whether or not I'd boo any of them.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Bononi

I don't hate/like Vettel, what bothers me is the dominance and the perspective of having boring races.

The discussion of his greatness and the superiority of the car he drives is relative and personal.

Sticking to facts, he's unique. What he achieved so far at his age, puts him above any other driver in F1 history, no one can deny that. Keeping this rate, TGF records and titles will be second best in history books, and the man retired recently !

People keep saying about the car superiority, but history proves that champions are made in the best machinery. Even the most popular hero said once, when he was with a inferior car that he would race for free in the best team at the time. Taking out the obvious, that says a lot. He won his three WDCs in a superior car. Oh yes, he had rivals in the same conditions at least in one season, but he lost others also.

I'm not defending Vettel or RBR, I'm just pointing out that this is what always happened in F1 and it will go on. Despite being a World Driver Championship, F1 is about teams and drivers combined to do their best.

What about Jacques, Mansell, Prost or Rosberg in unbeatable cars/teams, and they are all champions to everyone's eyes...

Like the loser's story side, put the blame on RBR to make a superior car. The truth is that is everybody else's fault in the grid to fail of making the same. That's competition at its best.

Ah, Formula One... 42 years watching/cheering/crying/loving/hating is taking its toll on me.

+1

Great post.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Vettel is a 'great' driver. Part of that 'greatness' is that he spends more time than any other current driver going through all of the tiny details with his engineer and other members of the team, as did Schumacher. Vettel's car is not the same as Webber's car where it matters, and that's in the detailed improvements in the car that Vettel is able to turn into better performance on the track. Put anyone in Webber's car, right now, and they will suck big time, because the devil is always in the detail.

As for the booing, it's the uninformed being infantile. If you want to boo something, go see a pantomime.

Great post!

I believe the secret of Vettel's success is his precision.

Vettel is the most precise driver I have ever seen, and I have seen all the champions listed as great above, if you watch his laps he never varies even when he is pushing to the limit, his accuracy is just surreal!

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Great post!

I believe the secret of Vettel's success is his precision.

Vettel is the most precise driver I have ever seen, and I have seen all the champions listed as great above, if you watch his laps he never varies even when he is pushing to the limit, his accuracy is just surreal!

+1

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by Catingaround

Interesting article on Webber -vs- Vettel and RBR reliability issues http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/groups/f1...y-at-red-bull/

It is interesting that so many fans only register the Mark Webber mishaps and reliability issues when in fact they both see similar failure rates.

Vettel: 40 issues, 8 leading to DNF
Webber: 45 issues, 3 leading to DNF

Well that's great someone worked that out. It'll finally put the conspiracy theorists to rest when Vettels had almost 3 times as many techinical retirements as Webber. You can't argue with that.

[FAS33]

at least Daniel Ricciardo won't be booed at, he's too cool for that.

[chunder]

Fascinating read all this

For some booing is simply not on and absolutely the bottom level of responses, anyone that does it is base, inferiior and should not be watching this, their beloved sport where everyone competing is a legend.

For me, its about entertainment now, it used to be about racing, but that died many decades ago.

Now, as Bernie seems to want to tell us with celebs on the grid, ridiculous venues and insane budgets and glamour, it's about entertainment.

And I dont like seeing the same bloke win every week, neither do quite a lot of people!

doesnt change that he is top drawer and likely to become a legend, but right now he and his team are making this "sport" a mockery. So the boo is maybe directed at RBR not necessarily Seb , who lets face it is hard to dislike!!

Disliking Prost or Senna or Schumacher or Kimi or Alonso is easy for those that do, but Seb is not nasty, not a villain, not overly dirty, nice on camera and off it, not political. Whats to hate?

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by wnut

Great post!

I believe the secret of Vettel's success is his precision.

Vettel is the most precise driver I have ever seen, and I have seen all the champions listed as great above, if you watch his laps he never varies even when he is pushing to the limit, his accuracy is just surreal!

That's exactly it ! If you've ever raced competitively, you'll know that precision and consistency are the two critical ingredients to success. The Grand Prix cars today are more evenly matched and supposedly easier to drive than their predecessors. The differences are tighter than they've ever been... and precision is the differentiator. When the top 10 [including Webber] are separated by hundredths of a second... Vettel does a lap three tenths quicker. It's subtle but at the same time phenomenal and if you're not in awe when that happens, you don't fully understand how modern F1 works.

He may have a laissez faire attitude to life and have corny ways of celebrating... don't forget he's still a 26 year old kid though. But he's genuinely a nice guy who [unlike lots of the prima donnas around him] has time on the grid to speak to door stoppers... is talkative at interviews, has an infectious sense of humour... loves Britain and the British way of life... and is generally very well behaved out of the car. If there were to be a hero in this sport, a role model for kids to look up to, then it would be hard to pick a better one than Vettel.

... so it's all the more pity that some people belittle his [truly incredible] achievements and worse still feel the need to throw vitriol over his success. Instead we prefer to cheer and idolize under performing footballers who p**s up against bins or bite their fellow players. It's a sad indictment of us really.

[MarkG]

That's right. You look incar of say, Hulkenburg, Di Resta, Bianchi and some, absolutely no precision at all. Constant corrections, can't put the power down at the right time.... hopeless drivers. You'd think they had a car with far less downforce or something, so much is their imprecision.

[numbersix]

Sorry guys, we need to revisit the word 'great.'

Technically proficient isn't 'great.'

Precise is precise, it isn't 'great.'

Being a champion doesn't make you a great champion.

Excellence doesn't make you great.

Awesome used to mean inspiring awe. You can't have an awesome breakfast. 'Great' has been devalued in the same way.

'Great' in this context implies the addition of character to technical excellence. Not 'A character' but character in the sense of the qualities of the inner man.

Jackie Stewart is great.

Muhammad Ali is great.

Stirling Moss is great.

Fangio was stratospherically great.

And in no definition of great that I can find is 'utterly ruthless' cited as a quality of greatness, so that's Mr Schumacher out of the equation despite his many championships.


Young Mr Vettel is technically first rate, precise and certainly excellent - but his character has yet to be tested against adversity or potent opposition. Which is possibly one reason why he inspires verbal negativity amongst the feeble minded.

He has the power and the talent to become great. Perhaps this will come in time.

[Paradise City]

Vettel isn't a great, Adrian Newey is a great. Until Vettel tests himself against some real opposition or moves teams, he won't get the respect that a multiple champion usually gets. It's the manner in which one wins that's important.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Vettel isn't a great, Adrian Newey is a great. Until Vettel tests himself against some real opposition or moves teams, he won't get the respect that a multiple champion usually gets. It's the manner in which one wins that's important.

No.