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Old 15 Apr 2004, 23:57 (Ref:941029)   #1
jhansen
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The Ferrari 333SP @ Le Mans

I was looking through some past Le Mans results and started focusing on the Ferrari 333SP (one of my favorites from the past). From what I can tell, 10 cars raced in the years of 1995 through 1999 with depressing results. The highlights were fastest lap in 1996, 6th overall in 1997, and 8th overall in 1999. The lowlights...well a bunch of DNF's. The pilots for the most part are good, depending upon the team of course.

My question is, why was this car not successful at Le Mans. Some years it was on the pace and in others it was quite far behind. Was it reliability? Lack of outright pace? Or just the teams that campaigned them?

I’m just trying to piece this together, as I don’t recall the reason why. Thanks for any comments.
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 02:01 (Ref:941074)   #2
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Reliability might've played a minor role...(although, remember Moretti won at Daytona in 98') I doubt it was the teams though. Doyle-Risi, Moretti, JMB, etc., used to all be very strong. Maybe it was just bad luck.
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 03:00 (Ref:941095)   #3
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The 333sp was designed for the north american series. Worked awesome on short tracks that need loads of traction... not so good down the loooong straights of LM.
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 07:10 (Ref:941182)   #4
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Great looking car though......

333SP
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 08:52 (Ref:941280)   #5
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certainly was...
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 08:53 (Ref:941283)   #6
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sorry, i know its been posted before...its the only one i have thats big in the frame...the other is a speck in a terte rouge general view.
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 10:23 (Ref:941353)   #7
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Hi JHansen,

I worked with the Racing for Belgium Team in 1996. We raced at Le Mans with the 333 SP ( drivers : Goossens, Vande Poele, Bachelart - car hired from US Team). The car was fast but we encountered troubles with the gearbox after 12 hours ( we were in fourth place at that stage) of racing, had to change it and the car kissed the rails at 07h00 after Bachelart took the wheel. VdP did the fastest laptime.
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 10:40 (Ref:941365)   #8
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Actually the 333SP was a low-drag car. At Daytona the 333SP was invariably the fastest through the traps being clocked typically at well over 200 where as the R&S MkIIIs barely nudged 185+. Yet they both set similar lap times. So Le Mans played to the car's strengths, which typically was low drag. I would think reliability was always a key factor. Yes, Moretti won in '98 at Daytona, but that was the SP's only 24 hour win.
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 10:42 (Ref:941366)   #9
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The engine was ****.
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 10:57 (Ref:941378)   #10
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I don't recall any problem with the engine. The fastest time set in 1996, was after we've changed the gearbox, in the early morning
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 12:08 (Ref:941467)   #11
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sorry, i know its been posted before...its the only one i have thats big in the frame...the other is a speck in a terte rouge general view.

Where?

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Old 16 Apr 2004, 12:09 (Ref:941469)   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by class4v
Hi JHansen,

I worked with the Racing for Belgium Team in 1996. We raced at Le Mans with the 333 SP ( drivers : Goossens, Vande Poele, Bachelart - car hired from US Team). The car was fast but we encountered troubles with the gearbox after 12 hours ( we were in fourth place at that stage) of racing, had to change it and the car kissed the rails at 07h00 after Bachelart took the wheel. VdP did the fastest laptime.

RfB
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 12:18 (Ref:941480)   #13
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My favorite 333 was the Blue Pilot car thar ran Le Mans in I think '96. And damn did the 333 hand the R&S its ass on the straits! In the SRP years, at one time Grand-Am had the Risi car restricted to where the Dyson R&S passed it on the highbanks at the Daytona night race. BMS did very well with the 333 in FIA sports car, but wasn't that series run to keep the cars close together via restrictions?

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Old 16 Apr 2004, 13:02 (Ref:941522)   #14
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BMS did very well with the 333 in FIA sports car, but wasn't that series run to keep the cars close together via restrictions?
Exactly. The FIA did Ferrari a few favours in order to keep the 333 teams in the series. Otherwise the car would have bitten the bullet rather earlier than it did. The Judd-ification of some chassis (was it two or three?) did not come by accident; without ongoing development, the 4l was really not up to the job anymore. Had Ferrari put some more effort into this side of the equation, or built a new engine even (e.g. based on the F550 powerplant), who knows, we might still be seeing 333s in competition today.
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 13:06 (Ref:941527)   #15
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Where?


here...honest!
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 19:32 (Ref:942013)   #16
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Originally posted by MulsanneMike
[B]Actually the 333SP was a low-drag car. At Daytona the 333SP was invariably the fastest through the traps being clocked typically at well over 200 where as the R&S MkIIIs barely nudged 185+.
Guess i assumed that the car would be high downforce since it was designed for the IMSA series...
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 23:17 (Ref:942206)   #17
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Originally posted by cybersdorf
The engine was ****.
I would not quite call it that, but the engine was certainly the 333SP's weak point. IIRC, it was the the valve train that was not up to the rigors of 24 hour races. This really came out at Daytona one year in the late 90's, when one 333 fell out at about 12 hours with engine issues. At that point the surviving car had to be revved at something like 6000 RPMs just to keep running during pit stops (hot-stops were permitted at Daytona). It too fell out a few hours later.

From listening to commentary about the cars during a number of 24 hour races, it is clear to me that Ferrari never really overcame the engines' reliability issues. But I agree that it is a lovely design and the engine a delight to listen to. I looooved the shriek of that engine!
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Old 17 Apr 2004, 00:19 (Ref:942233)   #18
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Yes, I recall the issue surrounding the SP's valves. That occured during a year at Daytona when the night temps dipped into the 30s(F). The valves couldn't seat properly do to heat sink issues with the titanium valve seats and the car wouldn't start particualarly easy (hence 6000 'rs)
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Old 17 Apr 2004, 13:31 (Ref:942559)   #19
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All Le Mans results:
Year
Date
Serial number, Overall result (Class result){DNF=Did not finish + reason}, Driver(s), Race number

1995
June 17-18
002 DNF electrics/engine Massimo Sigala/Rene Arnoux/Jay Cochran #1

1996
June 15-16
003 DNF out of fuel Andy Evans/Yvan Muller/Fermin Velez #18
010 DNF lost a wheel Eric van de Poele/Eric Bachelart/Mark Goossens #17

1997
June 14-15
010 6th place (3rd in class) Didier Theys/Gianpiero Moretti/Max Papis #3
005 DNF out of fuel Michel Ferté/Adrian Campos/Charles Nearburg #4

1998
June 6-7
018 8th place (1st in class) Wayne Taylor/Eric van de Poele/Fermin Velez #12
019 14th place (3rd in class) Gianpiero Moretti/Mauro Baldi/Didier Theys #3
005 DNF gear box Michel Ferté/Pascal Fabre/François Migault #10
022 DNF gear box Vincenzo Sospiri/Jean-Christophe Boullion/Jérome Policand #5

1999
June 12-13
030 DNF engine Mauro Baldi/Jérome Policand/Christian Pescatori #29

More on http://come.to/333sp
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Old 17 Apr 2004, 19:01 (Ref:942762)   #20
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From listening to commentary about the cars during a number of 24 hour races, it is clear to me that Ferrari never really overcame the engines' reliability issues.
I would go one step further and say, Ferrari never really tried.
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Old 5 Dec 2004, 14:22 (Ref:1171344)   #21
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Yes, I recall the issue surrounding the SP's valves. That occured during a year at Daytona when the night temps dipped into the 30s(F). The valves couldn't seat properly do to heat sink issues with the titanium valve seats and the car wouldn't start particualarly easy (hence 6000 'rs)

I'm digging up this old thread as I can further add some info. I've recently been given the opportunity to copy and read Jeff Braun's 1995-1996 race reports. Jeff Braun was the team engineer for Team Scandia for that time period. He sent me the reports for Daytona, Sebring, Road Atlanta, and Le Mans. They are very interesting contaning information from the mundane (daily to do lists for the mechanics, roomate lists, itneraries, etc.) to the captivating (Tony Southgate's April 1996 Le Mans wind tunnel test with the 20% Ferrari 333SP model).

In the 1996 Daytona report and through further emails with Jeff, the issue with the Ferrari engine was that simply the heads weren't designed with enough meat in the area of the valves. And over time (12 hours plus), they began to warp in that area. Therefore the engines wouldn't restart after sitting in the pits. It turns out the issue wasn't related to the temperatures seen at Daytona that year, it just was a longevity issue and over time the material couldn't handle the thermal loads. Ferrari did issue a fix, casting new heads and beefing up the area of the valve seats, but the car's weak like still continued to be the gearbox and Braun mentions this in his 1996 Le Mans post race conclusion.

Additionally the Southgate aero report points to a decidedly low-drag/downforce car by today's standards. For 1996 they trimmed even more drag off it. Given that they only had 575 hp available in ACO trim, the car was topping 204 mph at all the fast points. And it is frightening how little actual downforce the car carried!

Last edited by MulsanneMike; 5 Dec 2004 at 14:30.
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Old 5 Dec 2004, 22:36 (Ref:1171732)   #22
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I was going to say it definitely wasnt lack of speed...since the Judd powered iteration outqualified everything running in the FIA SCC in its last year at Monza...including C60s and Domes...not bad for such an old car!!
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Old 7 Dec 2004, 15:55 (Ref:1173552)   #23
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The 333SPs were beautiful cars! Even fast like evryone else said. They just didn't have the reliabilty though. I would have loved to have seen the Moretti Ferrari win Le Mans back in 1997 if it would have lasted, or even a win in 1998? No, I will leave 1998 to Porsche!
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Old 9 Dec 2004, 21:43 (Ref:1175667)   #24
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There are lots of exceptions, but F1 engines that are re-molded for endurance racing have a harder time it seems to last for 24 hours. Judd has it down pat now, but I remember when it was called "the Dudd", because if you had one, your chances of making it weren't the best.

Dereck Bell once said of the Mirage Cosworth that it felt like it was going to blow up every lap because of the vibration.

I remember during their last real attempts at the 24 Daytona in 01 and 02, a lot of people felt like it was the favorite because of its age and thus, reliability. Not to be smart but I felt like it would be lucky to make the finish, and sadly neiter year it did.

As far as Le Mans, the arrival of factory teams and the money they were shelling out caught up with the 333SP quickly. Ferrari had sort of a backhand at times as far as factory support but the money they were spending on the 333SP wasn't any match for Porsche, Toyota, Mercedes, etc.
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Old 10 Dec 2004, 13:11 (Ref:1176128)   #25
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There are lots of exceptions, but F1 engines that are re-molded for endurance racing have a harder time it seems to last for 24 hours. Judd has it down pat now, but I remember when it was called "the Dudd", because if you had one, your chances of making it weren't the best.

Dereck Bell once said of the Mirage Cosworth that it felt like it was going to blow up every lap because of the vibration.
That's true. The DFV (especially the bigger version) had all sorts of vibration problems at Le Mans for several years, though it did manage to score a couple of wins.

Ferrari didn't have too much luck with their 'GP-engined' 312P in 1973 either...
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