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2 Jul 2007, 18:51 (Ref:1952676)
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#276 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
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Update- added RA2/038
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2 Jul 2007, 18:54 (Ref:1952682)
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#277 | ||
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Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
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Update- corrected details for RA2/46 (Thanks for spotting that!)
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Last edited by KA; 2 Jul 2007 at 18:58. |
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2 Jul 2007, 18:57 (Ref:1952688)
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#278 | ||
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Posts: 5,402
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Update for RA2/66
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2 Jul 2007, 19:02 (Ref:1952696)
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#279 | |||
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Posts: 5,402
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2 Jul 2007, 19:07 (Ref:1952704)
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#280 | ||
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Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
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Quote:
The Brun/Ralf Goring car described as AF16849- That's obviously not a BMW Motorsport 'RA' chassis number, so is it one given by the team, in the same way the BMW GB cars were known as CC29/30, or is it a car that was built up by Brun independently, without using a BMW Motorsport chassis? |
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2 Jul 2007, 19:15 (Ref:1952712)
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#281 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
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I was looking at a copy of the 'Autosport' report from the Zolder ETC round in 85, and found this:
Fifth on the grid was the leading BMW, as normal, the leading Schnitzer car with Gerhard Berger and Roberto Ravaglia aboard. This was a brand new chassis --- Schnitzer's 12th 635CSi --- and it was a late starter, built up only after the team had leased one of their Spa cars to Bob Jane in Australia for the Bathurst event. The new car misbehaved itself. Berger, with 'qualifying' red and silver racing boots --- more fitted to a boxing ring so they said --- found the beast taxing indeed http://www.davebarton.com/Volvo_Grou..._articles.html We know that RA2/55 was the Schnitzer car that went to Bathurst, and RA2/60 was the 'skeleton' liveried Spa winner. Looking at the chassis list, RA2/75 is also listed as a 1985 Schnitzer car- could this be the new car debuted at Zolder? |
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2 Jul 2007, 22:03 (Ref:1952886)
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#282 | ||
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Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
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Quote:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=130 Were the Mirko and Clark prodsaloons prepared from 'showroom' cars, or were Motorsport shells used, as with the Grace/Gartlan Barrie Williams car? |
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3 Jul 2007, 09:28 (Ref:1953193)
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#283 | ||
 Race OfficialVeteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,734
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I didn't recall the Clark podsaloon car being black, so that's good!
It was definitely white with thin red/blue BMW body striPes by the end of the year though IIRC. It was at Silverstone for a late '84 race (either TT or BRDC finals meeting) in such a scheme (always the chance it was Whizzo's but that was pretty much plain white?) One other thing perhaps to point out is that the Group N cars that have come up (Clark's Mirko's, Whizzo's) were actually showroom production saloon spec cars, running on road tyres. Group N regs which was introduced into UK in the late 80's ran on slick tyres and the cars had one or two mods allowed over standard 'prodsaloon' spec. The 635's never ran in Group N in UK, these cars were prior to Group N being introduced. KA thanks for the continual updates, great stuff. ian mentions a Stycek '84 DRM winner being a Schnitzer car - so does that mean the Stuck car a few of us have seen in the museum in Stuttgart was just a competitor and not the champion. I'll see if I can zoom in on the info plaque in the photo I have of it!! Last edited by chunterer; 3 Jul 2007 at 09:35. |
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__________________
"Double Kidney Guv'nah?" "No thanks George they're still wavin a white flag!"
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3 Jul 2007, 10:22 (Ref:1953253)
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#284 | |
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Racer
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 274
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In '84 Brun Motorsport ran usually two but occasionally three cars,two being brand new Eggenberger built.The cars were driven byBrun himself,Hans Stuck,Leopold von Bayern(his car being built by Brun Motorsport)and Mario Ketterer.On one occasion at the Avus round,Manfred Winkelhock raced one of the cars under the Equipe Ligui Moly banner but it was actually a Brun car.In the final points table,Von Bayern was 10th,Brun 13th,Stuck 16th and Ketterer was 21st.Ketterer also ran his car in Euro hillclimbs.The team raced a single car at the Nurburgring 24 hours,Stuck,Harald Grohs and Dieter Quester being the drivers,they retired after an accident.Two cars were retained for 1985 and as mentioned earlier one car was sold to Ralf Goring.I do not know why this had the unusual chassis number AF 16849.At the end of 1985 one car was probably bought by Kurt Konig.I am pretty certain that the Jagermeister orange car was one of the Eggenberger built vehicles.
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3 Jul 2007, 10:28 (Ref:1953267)
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#285 | |
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Racer
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 274
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The ex Schnitzer chassis 31 was bought by Volker Strycek and run by Gubin Motorsport (a BMW dealership based in Bochum),they also sponsored the car.Strycek was champion in '84 and was 9th in '85.He eventually became the competion boss for Opel for some time.The car was then sold to Manfred Niederhof for '86.They did however build a brand new car for Karl-Heinz Schaferfor '86.At this stage of its competition life the 635 was not competitive and few results were gained in the sprint format of the German championship.
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3 Jul 2007, 20:59 (Ref:1953717)
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#286 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
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Update- added RA1/31
RA1/022 BMW France sold to Frank Sytner sold to Johnstone BMW in NZ now owned by Dougal McGibbon (NZ) RA1/25 Brun Motorsport? (Jagermeister) Stuck- 1984 DTM Champion now in Museum of Science & Industry, Stuttgart RA1/27 Mullerbrau Team, Germany RA1/029 BS Automotive (Cheylesmore) replacement chassis for RA1/001 1983 BTCC- Stuck 1984 BTCC (Grundig)- David Kennedy 1985- sold to Brian Chatfield, used in a few BTCC rounds 1986- Manns Racing- (Barry Barnes) at Donington ETCC round- DNS? 1986- Barry Robinson- appeared at Silverstone TT 1988- Peter Buxtorf subsequent owners, Nigel Smith, Kevin Underwood, Peter Speis. Now with Alex Elliott? RA1/31 1983 Schnitzer (Meisterfoto)- Bellof 1984- Gubin Motorsport- Volker Strycek, 1984 DTM Champion 1986- Manfred Neiderhof RA2/034 Schnitzer (Original Teile) 1984 ETCC (Quester/Stuck) 1985 sold to Simon Emmerling in Australia Still with Emmerling, rebuilt into Sports Sedan with Holden or Chevy V8. Crashed 2006 |
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4 Jul 2007, 05:54 (Ref:1953889)
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#287 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 21
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Hi KA,
In answer to your question, I only got to speak to Ted Grace once before he passed away. He insisted RA2-46 was originally in Grp A trim. This tallies with my information from BMW Motorsport. It was crashed(I think in testing) after which it was stripped, repaired & sat in his workshop as a bare shell. It was then rebuilt to Production Car Specs for Barrie Williams. As an aside, I have also heard that there were issues over the eligibility of the car for Production Racing (I call it Grp N), because of it's Motorsport Shell. It also ran a windage tray in the sump, high compression pistons, blueprinted & balanced engine, an Alpina modified computer, Wilwood brakes & of course a modified side exit exhaust. John Morton, who brought the car into NZ, has told me that it was a bit of a "cheater" (aren't they all?). I have restored the car back to the above spec. Because of it's chequered history, I am really keen to find out the true story of the car. I hope this answers Ian's queries about Grp N as well. Gerry |
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4 Jul 2007, 19:12 (Ref:1954476)
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#288 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
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So that brings us back to a presumably 1984-season Group A car, crashed in testing and then either not rebuilt, or rebuilt into a different shell (from an existing, earlier car?), leaving the damaged RA2/46 stored in Grace's workshop until it was rebuilt into the Prodsaloon.
The Ted Grace involvement suggests a Sytner car, so do we have Frank intending to use an all-new car in 84, shunting it heavily in testing and having to start the season of his existing RA1/17 & RA1/22, possibly incorporating the 84-spec engine, drivetrain etc from RA2/46. You'd expect that once the shell was repaired the newer car would be brought back into service, but instead, could it for some reason have been laid aside to eventually become the Williams Prodsaloon, with Frank continuing with the uprated 1983 chassis? Alternatively, could it have been a Group A car from another team crashed in testing and the damaged/repaired bare shell sold on to Grace to be built up into the Prodsaloon. If it had come from elsewhere though, the info you got from BMW Motorsport would surely have recorded that fact.... Anynoe got any ideas, or even better a half-forgotten piece of info that answers this question....? |
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4 Jul 2007, 19:44 (Ref:1954506)
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#289 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,056
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What about asking someone like Frank Sytner, John Clark or Barrie Williams if they know?
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__________________
Gregor Marshall
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4 Jul 2007, 22:16 (Ref:1954632)
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#290 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,056
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Frustration
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__________________
Gregor Marshall
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4 Jul 2007, 22:41 (Ref:1954661)
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#291 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 38
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I have written to Frank, and I'm hoping to speak to David Sutherland.....
Actually if anyone has contact details for John Clark, and Barrie Williams, I'd be most grateful. Thanks BC |
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4 Jul 2007, 22:59 (Ref:1954685)
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#292 | |||
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Rookie
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 21
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Quote:
RA2-46 was not bought from another team. I quote BMW Motorsport fax to me "as far as we could enquire your demand, it was a Grp A car which was delivered in 1984 to Grace Racing GB as a RHD car." When I spoke briefly to Ted, he gave me the info I have relayed here. He also said, after the shell was rebuilt, Frank Sytner said it would never be the same & didn't want to use it. That is all I know about the Grp A history of my car. What I am sure about is that it was built for the Prod Car Series & I am sure it was Barrie Williams' car, once again, Ted gave me this information. He was going to put it in writing but unfortunately left us before this could happen. So as you can gather, I am trying to trace the history but being on the other side of the world is extremely difficult. That is why I am hoping either yourselves or Gregor can put some of the jigsaw together. I have no reason to doubt what Ted said as he told me the Grp N engine specs off the top of his head & when I pulled the engine apart, it was exactly as he had said. Any info, results, photos greatly appreciated. Gerry |
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4 Jul 2007, 23:28 (Ref:1954713)
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#293 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
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5 Jul 2007, 09:12 (Ref:1954963)
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#294 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,056
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Quote:
I've pm'd Gerry Barrie's telephone number, I don't want to give it out to too many people, it would tire Barrie out with all that talking he does at his age!! |
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__________________
Gregor Marshall
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5 Jul 2007, 12:21 (Ref:1955107)
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#295 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 38
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The continuing saga of RA2/046
I have just spoken with John Clark, and he says that there were only ever two RHD 635's, and that they were definately built in the UK by CC Motorsport.
We know that RA2/046 was delivered in 1984 to "Grace Racing GB" as a RHD car. We believe that it was crashed early in the 84 season, possibly in testing or at Donington. Ted Grace, before he passed away, said that it was stripped, repaired & sat in his workshop as a bare shell. It was then rebuilt to Production Car Specs for Barrie Williams, who raced it in 1985. It was then sold to John Morton in New Zealand. We also know that BMW GB / CC Motorsport had two BTCC cars, RA2/037 & RA2/039, which were given CC Motorsport chassis numbers CC29 (driven by James Weaver) and CC30 (Vince Woodman). CC30 was crashed at Donington and reshelled and became 'CC31'. In 1985 both cars (and spare car RA001) were sold to Frank Sytner, who had sold his 1984 cars, both LHD, presumably RA2/017 and RA2/022, to New Zealand. CC29 (RHD) was sold on to Mike Newman and raced in BTCC events in 1985-7. CC31 (RHD) raced by Sytner 1985 BTCC, sold to Charlie O'Brien/Erle McRae Motorsport and raced at Sandown & Bathurst. Therefore it is possible that chassis 046, was in fact the car that was crashed, presumably donating its running gear to a new shell, and ended up in Ted Grace's workshop. Frank Sytner is reported to have said "it would never be the same & didn't want to use it".I imagine that at the time, parts were bought and sold quite freely between teams. The car that John Clark raced with David Sutherland at the 84 TT was LHD and therefore was either 017 or 022. So this all gives some credence to what KA thought - that 046 had come from another team. It also fits with what Gerry Hodges knows. John also said that Ted Grace never owned any cars - he just prepared them on behalf of others. So it is possible that 046 never actually raced in a Group A event, unless it was raced very early in 84! I'm going to keep going with this one; I've yet to hear from Frank Sytner and I want to speak to a couple of other drivers.... Stay Tuned !!!!!!!!! Cheers Bill Cutler |
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5 Jul 2007, 12:59 (Ref:1955147)
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#296 | |
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Racer
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 274
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In yet another attempt to get to the bottom of the Sytner cars,I have just gone through my files again and re-read all my notes from the time as well as any correspondence I received including a letter from Frank Sytner from 23 January 1986. The first Sytner car was started in Decenber '82 By Ted Grace whe was based in Pershore,Worcestershire as a preparation expert not a team owner as such.The car was finished by March/April of '83 and was left hand drive.It had an Alpina prepared engine and was in long distance trim with air jacks built in as well as bigger fuel tank,This was used by Frank in the Trimoco British series on 5 occasions.It also raced at the Donington and Silverstone ETCC races co-driven by Brian Muir.Sadly on the way home from Silverstone, Muir collapsed and died.In '84 the original car was initially used for Frank in the British series but was crashed heavily at the Silverstone ETCC race where Barrie Williams was the co-driver.The car was repaired with a brand new''rear end''.A new car was built by Ted Grace in August '84.At the Silverstone ETCC a second car ran driven by John Clark/David Sutherland,they were 15 th.A car had also been run at the Spa 24 hours for Frank and the Simons brothers from Belgium,they were 9th.A group N(Production class) car was built by Ted grace for Barrie Williams(the car looked like a replica of the Sytner Group A version).This was for sale in Autosport 14/4/88 at £10,000 from Ted Grace.The newly built car was sold to John Morton in New Zealand and Sytner co drove this with him in early '85. The older Group A car was retained into '85 but was also eventually sold to Graham Johnson/John Morton.
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5 Jul 2007, 13:21 (Ref:1955169)
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#297 | |
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Racer
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 274
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At the start of '85 Sytner acquired the three BMW GB/CC Motorsport cars one of which was the original Eggenberger car CC had raced, this was sold in June '85 to probably Raymond van Hove in Belgium.One car was sold almost immediately to Mike Newman(ex-Weaver)(who still owns it).Sytner ran a car in the British series,winning at Silverstone (still in the original left hand drive car). At both British ETCC races two cars were entered.At the Silverstone round a car was hired by South Africans Tony Viana/Nicola Bianco#35 who were 8th.This car was ex BMW GB as it still was in white with silver panels and was sponsored by Scope magazine.The dates of sales are critical here and I do not have this information.Sytners remaining ex-BMW GB car(ex-Woodman) was eventually sold to Charlie O'Brien in Australia and he got it in time to race at Bathurst.This leaves me not understanding exactly which car Sytner actually ran for the bulk of the British series and how two cars were entered at the Donington ETCC(April)and Silverstone(September)if he had sold on cars to Newman,Morton(for races down under early in '85) and the Belgian team!!It seems that Sytner had a total of five 635's passing through his hands plus the Group'N' car which is sort of his and all are accounted for.His team was wound up at the end of '85 and Frank went on to race a 635 for Cibiemme and a 325 for Autobudde in '86 before the M3 became his weapon of choice.
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5 Jul 2007, 16:04 (Ref:1955316)
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#298 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
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Quote:
Looking at what Ian's posted this afernoon, I've got a definite feeling that Sytner's race activity as described compared with the dates at which cars were apparently sold on seem to suggest that that we might have slightly under-estimated the number of cars to pass through Frank's hands....I'm fairly convinced now that the answer to this question lies with Mr Sytner! |
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5 Jul 2007, 16:19 (Ref:1955331)
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#299 | |||
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Race Official Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,734
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__________________
"Double Kidney Guv'nah?" "No thanks George they're still wavin a white flag!"
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5 Jul 2007, 16:33 (Ref:1955350)
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#300 | |||||
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
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Looking at the summary of Sytner 635 activity in these two posts, I wonder if the answer lies somewhere in what you've posted- going through it in stages:
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