pre 93' saloons, 1300 class?

[rallycrosscraig]

is there a 1300 cc class in this pre 93 championship?

[greenamex2]

The class breaks for pre-93 for 2008 are -

Class A Over 3900cc
Class B 2501cc to 3900cc
Class C 2001cc to 2500cc
Class D 1601cc to 2000cc
Class E Up to 1600cc
Class F Production BMW

Last year there were no sub-1500cc cars so we didn't consider a 1300cc class. You can of course run in the upto 1600cc class but clearly a 1300cc car wouldn't be as competitive.

If there is interest for a lower class cutoff then please let the championship co-ordinator know and he will be please to discuss further and consider for 2009. His email details are -

tim.scott-andrews@classictouringcars.com

For further info the regs for the pre-93 championship (and all other CTCRC) championships can be found at -

http://www.classictouringcars.com/pages/techregs.asp

[Austinspace75]

What car have you got Craig?

I don't think engine size is necessarily that prohibitive, especially if you make up for it in other ways... Any series where you'll find some fairly standard machinery regardless of engine size is VERY likely to provide you with cars to play with.
The TTRS will have a healthy contingent of Production BMW cars (VERY standard) in the upto 1600cc class (where your car would fit in) meaning that there is very likely to be a few of them running at the same sort of pace as yourself. There's no reason why a nicely prepared and peddled 1300cc car couldn't put many of them to shame!
Also, they're a great bunch of guys, running possibly the best value for money racing available (at all the major UK circuits), and judging by the race I had with them last year the driving standards are excellent. Also, its such an attractive series that I reckon its very likely some other cars like yours will turn up as well.

There's another thread regarding this series (link below), with some links to regulations and so on. I think they've set up their own site now as well. Have a look, see what you think. I found them to be a very approachable bunch if you've got any questions or concerns.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102331

Tom.

[TSA]

Originally Posted by rallycrosscraig

is there a 1300 cc class in this pre 93 championship?

Hi Craig

As Denis has already pointed out the lowest capacity class in the Pre'93 Championship is Class E for up to 1600cc cars and you could run a 1300 car in that. However you're not the first to ask about a dedicated class for up to 1300cc cars so it'll be considered for '09.

If you need any more info you can reach me at tim.scott-andrews@classictouringcars.com or visit the club site at http://www.classictouringcars.com

Regards

Tim Scott Andrews
Pre 1993 Touring Car Championship Co-ordinator

[Al Weyman]

I don't think its a bad idea at all, these regs for pre-93 are very similiar in some ways to my old ModProd regs and we had a thriving sub 1400cc class (I think it was, its started at 1340cc to accomadate the big Mini's) in fact it could become an extremelly good idea as pressures on motorsport and its usage of earth's resourses becomes apparent and old V8's like my Chevis are concidered dynosaurs.

The pre-93's allow less modifications than the old Mod-Prods and I am currently downgrading the spec on my IROC-Z to meet the 2008 regs so for the budget concieous competitor they may well suit.

In fact there is now a few suttle but very important differences that Tim has cleverly introduced into the regs between our (CTCRC) pre-93 rules and the breakaway TTRS pre-94 series that Tom has spoken about that will definitely make our championship more cost effect at least from a car preparation point of view in particular limitations on the induction side so it will become a case of you pay your money you makes yer choice as I am sure both will have there merits and downsides.

We have also left open a class for any BWM boys who may fancy a run out with us and they can infact not just win the class from there but can win the overall championship and I know of at least several who have committed to a run out so hopefully you will also have some opposition to run against. Also some of the Group 1 boys will opt for a run out I am sure and most wont bother to change tyres so you will have an edge there on Toyos.

[micky rason]

Hi Guys an interesting point as i am considering bringing out the mini again.
Al when i did the mod prods it was class D upto 1600cc in which i ran a 1430 with fuel multi point fuel injection.
The car in race trim minus driver is 620 klg with all steel body and glass. i think the sub 1400 was after my time.

the regs as i read them for pre 93 upto 1600cc say " pre 1.1.83 published kerb weight - 10% OR post 1.1. 83 at a weight determined by ctcrc group one" (ie 730klg incl driver based on production capacity)
the kerb weights varied from 1959-2000 between 617 and 686 depending on model as the mini fits various age categories this could be 617 - 10% = 555.3 plus driver say 70 kg = 635.3
so a mini you would obviously list as pre 1.1.83 with a 100 klg advantage
as you can use fiberglass bonnet and boot to help make this weight.
a well tuned 1275 mini could be competitive in upto 1600cc although as i found out it is down to what circuit and the weather!

as for pre 83 the weight is slightly irrelevant as the class limit is 1300 anyway
slight problem would be most minis have had rear pockets removed to fit cage in and i think this may be a problem
what do you guys think?

[Al Weyman]

Hi Mike, I think you are reading that slightly wrong. If you use the Group 1 rules as your minimum weight then they will be 730kgs without the driver. If you choose to use the pre-93 weight rules then you can go in at 635kgs as you say so just go with the option that suits you best easy as that. The whole idea is to let guys running in Group 1 (pre-83) to not be disadvantaged if they want a race in Pre-93 on the day (at a £100 special BARC deal).

The reason this rule was put in was because last season we had a situation where a regular Group 1 runner (Jag XJS) who also competed in Pre-93 and by virtue of the cars standard kerb weight being about 1760kgs and with a very light driver the car would have had to weigh in at around 1525kgs where as in Group 1 at 5,300cc it could race at 1386kgs and it was felt unreasonable and indeed impractical between races to ask a guy to bolt on a massive 140kgs of lead when all he wanted to do was have a 2nd race! It's all about getting guys our to race not scaring them off which is why this sensible compromise has been arrived at.

If you or any other sub 1300cc cars want to compete simply play the rules to your advantage and in fact despite there not being a 1300cc class a sub 1300cc car will generally be lighter than a 1600 model so even as the rules and classes are this season, there could be some advantage to be gained running a small capacity car especially a Mini!

[Al Weyman]

slight problem would be most minis have had rear pockets removed to fit cage in and i think this may be a problem
what do you guys think?

I don't think it will be a problem, good fitment of the cage is the overiding criteria. I don't think anyone will worry you too much :-)

[micky rason]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Hi Mike, I think you are reading that slightly wrong. If you use the Group 1 rules as your minimum weight then they will be 730kgs without the driver.

ok i give up your right, but it actually makes the difference worse as for an example with a 70 kg driver the minimum is 800kg compared with 635 for the post 83 car
i bet this situation doesnt happen with many other cars.

[Al Weyman]

No you are still reading it wrong Mike, you are adding on the weight of the driver not subtracting it, in your example you could race at 482kgs and I bet you will never get it down to that! Look your 617kgs car less 10% would be 555kgs as you say so you sit in it and drive it on to the scales as long as it does not weigh more than 555kgs WITH YOU IN IT then its OK effectively meaning if you subtract your weight it can weigh in at just 482kgs.

This is the reg "Cars marketed after 1st January 1983 - the published Kerb weight minus 10%. This includes the driver, normally seated with racing overalls and helmet only." And thats how I read it please correct me if I am wrong, the Pre-83 (Group 1) reg DOES NOT INCLUDE THE DRIVER.

[micky rason]

ok i give up again you are correct so the difference between pre 83 and post 83 would be 480 and 730 with no driver
somewhat of a gap eh?
any way i need a lie down cause my heads hurting.
will phone you about some signs Al.

[Al Weyman]

The thing is though Mike I doubt you would ever get a steel shelled, original subframed Mini with glass and a legal cage and prepared to the rest of the regulations down to anything like that so its all relative and anyhow it allows for some advantage to be gained for the smaller cars so hopefully will encourage a few out. I never did find out the advantage or percieved advantage of running a clubman front in our Post Historics despite asking the question on the club site, did you?

[micky rason]

Good reminder Al i havent looked into it myself but have been told the GT clubman 1275 ran twin 1 1/2" SUs and the 1275 "S" ran twin 1 1/4"s !!! but i will check on that
i personally cant think of any other reason other than just to be different.

[Al Weyman]

Well that would not make a jot of difference in Group 1 or Pre-93 because you can have the same amount of chokes as fitted irrespective of the original carbs you can also change the carb type. It would make a difference in Post Historic though. Strange because I remember the Clubman being introduced and being disappointed as it was well slower than the Cooper S and was only fitted with one larger single carb!

[micky rason]

Al just did quick lookup and the car in uk was called mini 1275 GT
Australia cars were Clubman GT and had "S" engines not so well tuned but with twin 1 1/2" SUs they also had MK1 type doors with outside hinges but wind up windows with quater lights and different animal to the uk car.
will find out more mick

[Al Weyman]

Then there was the DeTomaso version was'nt there, made in Italy??

[nyssa7]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Then there was the DeTomaso version was'nt there, made in Italy??

Innocenti made minis in Italy under licence, once had a long discussion with a Mini fan to see whether this was an "in" for the them Auto Italia championship

The De Tomaso Mini was a completely different animal and based on Daihatsu Charade turbo mechanical parts

[Al Weyman]

The De Tomaso Mini was a completely different animal and based on Daihatsu Charade turbo mechanical parts

Interesting, sounds like it may have a bit of competition potential.

[micky rason]

The Innocenti scooter company made both classic minis and something called a mini 90L/120L which looked like a squashed up fiat 127
i think the "L" stood for laugh, they all had "A" series engines upto 1275cc.
in 1975 BMC sold Innocenti to DE Tomaso who made the imaginatively named "Innocenti DE Tomaso" ! these also had "A" series engines and hydrolastic suspension. in 1982 De Tomaso changed from Leyland to Daihatsu and and used Charade engines and suspension incl the 3 cyl 993 Turbo with 5 speed box with a stonkin 174bhp sorry i mean 74bhp this was called..... yes you guessed the Turbo De Tomaso
1990 it was sold to Fiat and 1993 fiat imported it as the Yugo no less!

anyway here ends your lesson for today now you can all go out to play!

[greenamex2]

I know the late Charade engine (Gtttti thing) was just a Toyota 1.6 16 valve lump with a cylinder hacked off, was the early one as well?

[micky rason]

dont know but the engine was CB60 SOHC 3 cylinder turbo it was built between daihatsu and hitachi and had 6 valves. later engines had 12 poss the gtti (gt. turbo. interclooler.) the Daihatsu De Tomaso turbo was based on the Daihatsu Charade turbo it was made to look like the innocenti de tomaso to cash in on the italian styling. the charade then also became Charade 926 turbo for group b ralling reduced capacity from 993.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by rallycrosscraig

is there a 1300 cc class in this pre 93 championship?

There's an up to 1300cc class in the CSCC "Tin Tops" series - 30 min practice,40 min races for 1 or 2 drivers & great value for money. You'd be very welcome in that.

[greenamex2]

There is also an up to 1400cc class in the CTCRC's Classic Modified Saloons championship.

Regs available at -

http://www.classictouringcars.com/pages/techregs.asp

[rallycrosscraig]

thanks for all the replies and PM's.

[TSA]

CTCRC adds new supermini class to Pre93 Touring Car Championship

As some of you may have already read in today's Autosport, the Classic Touring Car Racing Club (CTCRC) have added a new class for up to 1400cc cars to its Pre93 Touring Car Championship for 2009.

The new class will cater for early '90s superminis such as the Peugeot 106 XSi, Rover Metro GTi 16v and Suzuki Swift GTI as well as 1300cc cars from the CTCRC's Classic Group One Championship that want to contest a second championship.

More information including regulations and race dates can be found on the CTCRC website http://www.classictouringcars.com

Tim Scott Andrews
Pre 93 Touring Car Championship Coordinator