Karts on a Hillclimb???

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by superbird
Did you get to find out how much it would cost to have a hill inspected and licensed as a kart venue? Because if enough people were interested it might be worth us forming a hillclimb kart club and raising the money to do it if the organising club or owner doesnt want to take the risk. I suppose there's the time involved as well though.

Apparently the fees for track inspections are located in Section Z of the Blue Book. (I don't have a copy so I'll have to let someone else supply the details). As far as John Felix, (VERY Senior MSA Steward, aka. "GOD") is concerned, there should not be any trouble with most of the mainland hillclimbs obtaining a Kart license. Each Kart would obviously need a timing-strut but apart from that, the only other concern would be whether you ran Gearbox or Non-Gearbox or both. The Pre-Start line at Hillclimbs could be used as the start for the Non-Gearbox.

[Piglet]

Originally posted by crazystu
Apparently the fees for track inspections are located in Section Z of the Blue Book. (I don't have a copy so I'll have to let someone else supply the details). .

Blue Book Appendix Z

11.2 Track Licence - Kart

International + CIK/FIA fee £270
National A £240
National B £180

Plus Inspector's Expenses.

Note: Half the licence fee will be charged for circuits or courses where not more than one meeting is organised per annum, subject to a minimum charge of £100.00

Track licence fees now incoporate all inspection costs.

11.2 New Circuits (doubt relevant)

Feasibilitiy studies £5,000
Final approaval Race Circuits £1,000
Final approval other venues £1,000)

(There are also charges for Championship permits, and for registration of recognised clubs, associations & groups Car & Kart Club - £77).

HTH

[Gizmo]

I have to ask.............Why?

[ghinzani]

because its there?

[ghinzani]

or is that mountaineering....

[blackx]

Sorry to have missed so many of you at Prescott this weekend but I was asked to go to Cadwell instead.........
We could have had a long old discussion about this on saturday night and I feel it would have been an interesting one at that.........
I for one cringe everytime I hear the "Karts" we have at present come to the startline..........
Not quite sure how I would feel if we had a class of em...........
I enjoy the Superkarts when they are at Donny but as for letting them loose on a hillclimb.........Hmmmmmm

[superbird]

Blackx what's your problem with karts? Just wondering

the only other concern would be whether you ran Gearbox or Non-Gearbox or both. The Pre-Start line at Hillclimbs could be used as the start for the Non-Gearbox.

Do you mean clutched or direct drive? I was actually assuming that it wouldn't be feasible to hillclimb direct drive karts but if it is that's great I can get a few more people involved.

What does anyone think of my idea of starting a club?

[superbird]

Delta, I'll email him when I get a minute, also the HSA

Glyn, kart circuits typically have tyre barriers using anything from F1 to road to truck tyres. I'd be more worried about armco, which a kart might go under but not the driver with very bad consequences

If we got a hill approved as a kart venue would juniors (under 16) be allowed? Would we have to stick to MSA approved classes or could we make simpler ones based on engine capacity?

[ghinzani]

Heres the reply I got from Gurston:

Dear Steve,

Concerning your enquiry we very much regret that we cannot incorporate karts or classes for them at Hillclimbs as all Hillclimb vehicles have to have a minimum wheel base of 6 feet.

There was some aggro many years ago when karts where still running and this is the result at all Hillclimbs, not just Gurston. I believe they still run in the Channel Islands!

Sorry we can't help

Jane Harratt, Competition Secretary

[blackx]

No particular problem with karts.........
If you read my reply you would also have seen that I enjoy the superkarts when I have marshaled them at Donnington several times in fact.....

It is the thought of karts on hills that gives me the heeby jeebies ever so slightly

Some of the scenery at some hills will not be forgiving to an erant kart and its driver

I suspect some places would deem it not financialy viable to make circuit alterations to suit karts.....

[superbird]

I did read your reply thank you. I just wondered if you didn't like the noise really as some people don't. I nearly said "what's your problem with non-superkart karts?" but it looked wrong. I'm glad you cleared that up anyway. I think it was in this thread that someone quoted an official saying that most existing hillclimbs would pass inspections to be approved as kart venues, does that allay any concerns?

[Pike]

Why should it allay any concerns?? Most hillclimbs have had to in recent years update barriers, armco, recticel etc to pass MSA inspections, as such all dangerous elements are elimenated as best as possible. Just let me know when karts are arriving so I can wear my shinpads!!!

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by superbird
does that allay any concerns?

I think that the problem some hillclimb/race marshals have with Karts is that there just doesn't seem to be enough bodywork (or even vehicle!!) to protect the driver in the case of an accident. Many have the same views of bikes. It is (IMHO) just a personal thing which stems from not attending Kart events. I can say this with some degree of confidence because as yet, I have never marshalled a Kart event and do view them (the Karts, not the venues) with some trepidation.

This is not meant as any kind kind of slur on Karting, it's just that I am not alone in being completely ignorant about this form of Motorsport and only have my own expectations, training and experiences to judge anything by.(rollcages, belts, crumple-zones etc).

Having said that, I would love to see Karts on my local hills but, after some discussions this week-end, I think a lack of available dates would actually be the greatest hurdle to overcome. All the Midland venues are over-subscribed with entries (whilst having a limit on the number of days thay can run) and to try and accommodate Karts would be a problem.

But nothing is impossible so..................

watch this space!!! Who knows????????


p.s. I am not on any committees so can't promise anything but I'll try to find a Hillclimb or Sprint venue that might want a Kart meeting as I would love to marshal it

[Woolley]

Just a few personal thoughts on this thread.

Firstly, I know where blackx is coming from re cringing - there are some 'kart-type' vehicles running at the moment (ie small wheels), but they are all pretty ghastly, they are not, however, really karts.

Hill climbs are comparatively dangerous places. Any error usually results in contact with something solid, and banks are genrally fairly lumpy, so the flight and landing is not smooth. Most of the notable injuries that I have seen since I've been marshalling hills have been bikers - 2 or 3 wheeled - and karts have a similar level of protection but greater capacity for speed. I personally feel that the risk of serious injury goes beyond the acceptable level, much as I would like to see the spectacle of these types of vehicles. It's more a case of horses for courses. You wouldn't run an off-shore power boat at Bristol docks, for instance, and I don't believe you could make many of the current venues safe enough. OK, I accept that it's the choice of the participant as to what is safe, but I'm not sure I want to be dealing with the results. HAving said all that, when Phil Jeffries crashed his Trakstar, he had it repaired and running again the next day without any obvious detriment to his speed. The general feeling at the time, though, was that he had been lucky to escape serious harm, and I would prefer the equation to be 'unlucky if you do' rather than 'lucky if you don't'

[blackx]

Cheers Woolley.............
Thats pretty much the point I was trying to make but as usual your effort was much more elequant than mine.....................:-)

[superbird]

As far as John Felix, (VERY Senior MSA Steward, aka. "GOD") is concerned, there should not be any trouble with most of the mainland hillclimbs obtaining a Kart license.

That suggests to me that Mr Felix believes that most mainland hillclimbs are as safe as kart tracks (at which there are few injuries).

Here's an example of a typical non-gearbox kart

The side and front "pods" on them are plastic and crumple on impact, and they have been crash tested by the FIA. The bodywork on that one is this years homologation so most karts look slightly different but it should give people an idea.

[JimW]

The side and front "pods" on them are plastic and crumple on impact, and they have been crash tested by the FIA. The bodywork on that one is this years homologation so most karts look slightly different but it should give people an idea.

I think that what may be worrying some of my colleagues is exemplified in the photo which superbird has posted. Like the hound of the Baskervilles, it is what is not there which is interesting. Trees and hard lumps not protected by tyres or Recticel are missing from the photo but certainly present at some hill climbs. Also rock walls and very uneven terrain. The "protection" on a kart is much more aimed at minor kart/kart contact than serious impact absorption. After all the driver is not strapped in so you cannot have serious impact absorption.

But, of course, if drivers are willing to compete under these conditions I would be very content to marshal the event. As far as I'm concerned karts are more fun per pound than most other disciplines. (I only keep away from short circuit karting because of the parents and the age of some of the competitors.)

Regards

Jim

[DarrellB]

I would imagine the karts that would be suitable for use on hillclimbs are likely to be gearbox karts 125,210 or 250cc not the non gearbox type shown in the picture. These karts a extremely quick lapping around national supersport pace at donington.

[superbird]

Darrell, I'd be competing in something similar to that pictured, just with a different type of engine. If anything, the gearbox karts are worse because they don't have to have even the bodywork that the 100's and Rotaxes have, and as Darrell says they are as quick as bikes.

If other posters feel it would be unsafe, I respect and understand that but I did think it was important to post a pic to make sure we are all discussing the same thing. I personally would be happy to compete somewhere that the MSA approves as a kart venue although obviously I would take responsibility and make the final decision myself. If there are no hills with tyre barriers where there's likely to be an off and none with tarmac suitable for something with a couple of cm of ground clearance then it's probably time to investigate sprints or similar.

[ghinzani]

Just out of interest whats the safety like at Bouley Bay and Valles de Terres in the Channel Islands where they run karts? Personally having received that reply from Gurston I just get the impression they dont want us on the hills because they are afraid of getting beat - I know hill climbs where they allow bikes and they have less protection than us.

[Woolley]

Yep, we have bikes at Shelsley, Loton and Prescott, but they're an awful lot slower than a kart.

[superbird]

I find that quite hard to believe but you know more about it than me

I'm just reading this which is useful - http://ukmotorsport.com/racmsa/manua...html#newvenues

[djb]

Way back in the very early 80's, at the Canadian GP at the present track, I recall watching a 250cc (or maybe even twin engined) kart race on the full track. I have a very clear 20-odd memory of watching these guys 4 wheel drifting through the right-left kink before the straight that leads up to the hairpin (before the kink there is a bridge the cars go under-Frenzten had a disk explode there a few years back). Now these guys were drifting through there up to the wall at probably 90mph or more. It was very impressive! So I for one believe the claims that they are faster than bikes-as they were really honking around the F1 track (no, I have no recollection of lap times). I'm pretty certain that the Phillip Island track down under has an overall lap record by a kart, could be wrong but if not fastest, its close.

As a former bike rider and racer , I say that to point out that I'm not just a safety wuss, I still have to agree with concerns with armco etc that would do a wonderful job of removing limbs, heads , you name it...

[superbird]

well I was one of the first to mention concerns about armco... I've no doubt 250's and twin 125s are quicker than bikes but no one's expressed an interest in hillclimbing anything that quick yet in these threads. Personally, I would agree that a superkart could well pose a bit more than an acceptable risk and if it was me I'd spend the same money on a hatchback and some mods.

So far we have got interested:
4 Rotax Maxes
1 Junior Rotax
1 Ecomoto
1 100 National
1 Formula A

Last round of the British Kart Championships this weekend so I'm going to get the word put around

[Fireblade]

Karts run at Bouley and Vel Des Terres in the Channel Islands. With impressive results. Although they participate in the run off at the end of the day they are in addition to the Championship registered cars, and are not unknown to get the top 3 Best Time's of Day.
Just see Roy Lanes face when they do it!!!

Hell will freeze I feel before the British mainland hills get a kart licence. There would be too much protest from the Top Dollar, oops, Class L boys for a kick off.
Yes they are quick I grant you that. The Trakstar entertained for sure but can you imagine a major incident at Shelsley or Loton in a kart? Would you want to be the 1st marshall on scene at an incident involving one? I am not a marshall I hasten to add, but have seen enough incidents on British hills to realise that a fatality would not be long in coming should they be allowed.

And talking of the big boys getting their own way. Just look back at Peter Needhams superlight Westfield and recall the protest that ensued. Their main objection is that for a much smaller budget the karts would steal their thunder.

Nice idea chaps but it aint gonna happen.

Does anyone remember a couple of years ago when they had some demo karts around prescott to entertain the punters over lunch?
They came out en masse and ran amok around the crossover before Riley (C of C)balled them out. He then made them go round in one at a time order.

Mind you does anyone remember lunchtimes on any other Mids hill besides Prescott