Porsche to Return? "Open" or "Closed"? (merged)

[Mal]

And of course who did Audi choose to run their all conquering effort - Joest, who also ran many of Porsches successes.

[sportscarsRULE]

Joest is taken eh. Is Tom Walkinshaw busy? He's obviously not occupied with F1(Arrows). Am I right in saying he ran the Group C Jags that were so great? And the Nissan R390 as well. Porsche could give him a call.

[bf1]

Sorry to blow my own trumpet but I do drawings like the one on:
http://scgt.com.sapo.pt/917_GTR.jpg

but I have never shown them to anyone outside of my Family and friends so I cant be ripped off but I would like to show them but buying a scanner them copy wrighting ect ect to all to costly

P.s I have done a Drawing of a Carrera GT but as a GTS not a LMP

[PascaLM]

Originally posted by SFonseca
Here is the car: scgt.com.sapo.pt/917_GTR.jpg

[tblincoe]

lets see the drawing of the carrera gt!

[Garrett]

Listen up Chevyguy, Porsche can eaisly come back and kick everyone's ass at Le Mans. The only reason Audi is so sucessful is because when they ran in 2000, Toyota was not present as well as BMW, Mercedes, and Nissan (R391). So, in 2001 and 2002 they built up their sucess and beat everyone those years. Like Alan McNish said for LM 2000, "the Porsche LMP 2000 is a winner the first time I drove it". To bad it never ran, that would have probably made one of the most hard fought and exciting battles at Le mans for many years in 2000 between Porsche and Audi. Though,I do give Audi credit.

[sportscarsRULE]

If Cadillac and Chrysler ran a full schedule of races along with Audi, they would've been up front by last year.

[tblincoe]

i totally agree, no manufacturer took LeMans seriously during Audi's reign... its not like Audi has some magic potion or something. if anyone can knock Audi off the top its Porsche

[JAG]

Even a small manufactuer like Zytek can now match Audi for out and out pace. All they need now is reliability.

[bf1]

Sorry lads I would happily post the Carrera and the Ford GT that I designed for GTS but Computer scanners and copyrighting costs money that i dont have

..but im open to donations

Anyway Im for an all out Porschse LM GTP VS Audi P1 battle but hopefully no P.Dumbrek esqe accidents from each others aerodynamics

bf1

[Homer Simpson]

Well, I suppose all that money the Cayenne is bringing in to the corporate checking account would be able to help pay for a good R&D program...

[Chevyguy]

I guess I stirred up some trouble. I know Porsche's record, and I know they are fast and reliable. However, the 962, in it's later wins was being outrun by newer machinary that broke. They beat the Toyota GT-One because it broke. They whole thing I'm getting at is they can't wait for an R8 to break. So I'll rephrase my question: Has Porsche ever came to Le Mans and stayed out of the garage for the entire race, and led the whole time? The R8s only come in for the rear end change as preventitive maintenence. It's just my beleif that you can't beat perfection, and that's what VAG has obtained. Also, I'd give alot more credence to the 917 if it had to race the GT40, but those never met.

[Cadete]

the GT40 and the 917 were subject to different rules, i believe, that's why they never met and why a direct confrontation would not be conclusive.

[krt917]

OK, I take it you mean the GT40 MkII or MkIV because the 917 did meet the GT40 MkI. At Le Mans in 1969 the 917s had the GT40s absolutely massacred for pace, but fell to bits. Neither should be seen as a surprise: the 917 was a MUCH later design than the GT40, with a sophisticated 4.5 litre (later full 5 litre) Flat-12 compared to a dependable 5 litre V8 and was much lighter. It was also brand new in 1969, which is why it broke and the GT40 won. Once perfected, the 917 raced against private GT40s and thrashed them. This is no disrespect to the GT40 because, as I say, it was a much older car and, by 1970, was not being run by the same calibre of team (i.e JWA) as the 917s.

If we are talking about the Mk.IV GT40s, no they never did meet. But the 917s would have beaten them too, especially, the Long Tailed cars at Le Mans. The 917s produced more power than the MkIVs, despite giving away 2 litres, were more modern and lighter.

Both were GREAT sportscars. Obviously, my favourite is the 917, but to compare them is unfair because really they were from different ages and that would always work in favour of the 917 if they met on track. Much tougher opposition to the 917s came from the Ferrari 512s and 312s.

[krt917]

Originally posted by Chevyguy
IHas Porsche ever came to Le Mans and stayed out of the garage for the entire race, and led the whole time?

I think Porsche have scored a couple of Le Mans wins that have been as emphatic as the Audi ones. The best, if I recall correctly, was in 1981 when the Bell/Ickx 936 ran faultlessly without even lifting the engine cover. A similar perfromance was turned in the following year when they finished 1-2-3. You could argue that they didn't really have any opposition except themselves, but then you could say that about Audi too.

A battle between the two would be great, though I'd give the edge to Porsche, once they'd got back into the swing of things!

[sportscarsRULE]

Wasn't the 917 short tail unstable at high, Mulsanne speeds b/c of a lack of downforce? Did the tiny little wing on the back fix the problem enough to make a dominant car?

[gi_gav]

Originally posted by Chevyguy
They whole thing I'm getting at is they can't wait for an R8 to break.

But you're assuming that the Audi will continue to be reliable. Factors that mitigate against that include it being an older car (witness Zytek and others getting close on pace) and the ban on rear-end changes.

What i'm meaning is that if Porsche could match or better the Audi pace, the R8s would be pushed harder - I don't believe they're infallible. While i mean no disrespect to Goh, Champion and Veloqx, i also think Joest prepared cars had an advantage.

Hopefully that makes sense, but i'm just back from the pub...

[simon c]

and you cant replace the transmission any more.

wonder what r8 le mans record woulld have looked like if this had not been allowed previously???

[Adam43]

I reckon it would just mean a different Audi won! You can't take that away from them really, the rules allowed it so they did it (after realising they could!). A lot of changes ended up being precautionary anyway.

Still Porsche, they certainly have been there and done that! It is now about time they did it again!

[kdr]

clarkson and the stig drove the carrera on bbcs "top gear" last night...awesome beast of a machine - fastest car ever round their track. perhaps some of the more technically gifted members could enlighten me - what class would this car slot into? i'm guessing gts?

[krt917]

Originally posted by sportscarsRULE
Wasn't the 917 short tail unstable at high, Mulsanne speeds b/c of a lack of downforce? Did the tiny little wing on the back fix the problem enough to make a dominant car?

The original 1969 917 was unstable in long and short-tailed form, despite the flaps. Nevertheless, the long tailed car was so quick at LM in 1969 that it disappeared into the distance before breaking.

After a joint test session between JWA and Porshce, the reason for the original 917s instability was found. Debate surrounds whether the JWA guys or Porsche men realised it first, but the rear tail was too low and was not receiving enough airflow. By creating an upswept tail (not entirely dissimilar to the Lola T70s), the stability problem was solved and the car immediately became faster and more driveable in short tail form. It was in short-tail form that the 917 won all its World Championship Sportscar races, perhaps most notably at Spa, where it broke the previous years F1 lap record by about 11 seconds!

The long-tail version then became a project for the Porsche engineers (JWA ran the cars at his stage, leaving Porshce to develop it and advise), though it was only ever raced at Le Mans. The 1970 car was more stable; one finished second to a short tailed car. The 1971 car was even better, to the point that JWA ran two and Martini Racing ran one. They were the quickest cars in the field, both in terms of lap times (I think 3:13 was the qualifying time) and top speed (240mph), but all three suffered problems. A one-off Magnesium chassised short-tail won the race, at an average speed which has yet to be beaten (largely due to track changes subsequently) at Le Mans.

I hope that's cleared a few things up.

I would say that if Porsche produced a new Sportscar it would make the R8s obsolete. How good the R9 (or whatever you call it!) would/will be in response is something I'd love to find out.

[jhansen]

Chevyguy:

Yeah the 962 fell off and started taking it from the Jags, Saubers, etc. But that was after how many years of dominance with essentially the same car? The Audi R8 has been around 4 years. If new factory cars came about and Audi plodded on with the R8 design a similar change of fortune would happen. Simply not seeing your argument I guess. And do you have specific instances regarding Porsche's reliability?

[The Badger]

What I find odd about all this is how quickly Porsche are to investigate the return of the works team to sportscar racing when the dust hasnt settled on the sideways promotion of Herbert Ampferer to the green division !?

[Chevyguy]

jHansen:

While the R8 is much like the 962 in the age department, the R8 is still the fastest thing on track. The Zytek might be closing the gap, but as long as there is a gap they can't beat it. I guess my arguement is that the popular opinion on this thread is that Porsche will be an instant winner, which I feel they will not be.

Porsche is obviously feeling the heat that they are losing their rep as the top sportscar company in the world. Thus the Carrera GT was born. If they want to remain top dogs, they will have to beat Audi at Le Mans. Bottom line. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that both companies will have a new prototype in the same year. The fans that are more familiar with Porsche will swear up and down that they will have instant success. Myself, being newer to the sport, I believe that the Audi will continue to own Le Sarthe. It's kind of like the two toughest kids on the playground having to fight each other because everyone wants them to. If they are friends, that doesn't matter, it has to be settled. I'd also like to see Toyota, Mercedes, etc. jump into the fray, but that would be asking for an instant "golden age" of Le Mans. Porsche versus Audi would satisfy my palette just fine.

[Chevyguy]

Oh, as far as specific instances as to Porsche's reliablility, Daytona 24, 2003.