Audi LMP1 Discussion

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

The reality is that the WEC is poised for huge growth if the hybrids are dropped. Yes, it goes against the popular direction, but, the return of Peugeot and bringing in others alongside the three currently in place, it would be the smart thing to do.

EDIT; There is going to be a tipping point of unsustainability... I'd thought it was going to be another few years before it happened, but, I think it's arrived in full force. Dieselgate aside, it was going to happen.

I think the latest info is that Peugeot wants back in because of the 3 hybrid systems, not a dropping of them.

[chernaudi]

You do have to remember that the 2011-2013 limit of 3.5MJ for hybrid systems was made essentially by request of Peugeot, who were (going to be) running a F1-derrived KERS system on the 2012 908.

So I can see it going both ways, with things being opened up for hybrids, but with less performance incentive/dependence for them.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

Audi could have went another lap before their stop(s). Yeah, they have a slower refueling time, but the stops themselves were slower. Even after all that, if Toyota didn't double stint, Audi would have won.

This.

Audi may have only knocked one lap off of each stint, but that was already a shorter stint. And an extra 1 or 2 laps per stint is about 10 laps by the end. Audi put themselves at risk of the FCYs this week.

Toyota won on absolutely spot on strategy. They double stinted the tyres on the shorter stint. You could argue Audi didn't have the adaptability to do this, but they also made it worse for themselves by having equal length stints, as it meant a full length stint on useds. They also made several pit stop mistakes. Only 1 or 2 stops were actually the usual 3 or 4 seconds off the Toyota/Porsche times. The rest were all Audi. Had they nailed the stops, they'd have won the race even with the refueling disadvantage.

Toyota recognised they couldn't win on pure pace, but they could stay close enough to make a smart strategy work. And it was absolutely epic.

On a different topic, I think the idea of parking a car that is outside of the homologation is nonsense. Pretty sure the cars aren't homologated with broken bodywork, yet we see damaged cars finished all the time. The spirt of endurance is that you keep on plugging away, even when you're crippled. We seen it at Le Mans with Toyota, and we even seen it last year where Porsche won the championship with a heavily crippled car. But they kept on fighting and took the rewards. Continuing on is part of the battle. If you're going to then have to design a car that is still legally homologated when it's got failed systems, costs are only going to rise further. In the spirit of endurance racing, that rule needs to go.

[chernaudi]

Even if the issue on the longer (near 90 seconds delta time) stops were the wheel gun issues hinted at during the race, Audi Sport need to find some new pit crew guys. Their tire changes have been at times horrible the past couple of races.

Again, I do wonder if the Joest guys can cut it and if Audi Sport are better doing things in-house like TMG and Porsche Motorsport are doing.

Their DTM program is pretty much in house (the teams just "own" the cars, but all preparation and team members I think are vetted/trained by Audi Sport), and they won the manufacturers' and teams' titles on Sunday. I think that Audi Sport need to reload and buckle down for '17 to get back on the right track. Granted, I do also question if personnel changes have messed up things already.

[kvenom]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Even if the issue on the longer (near 90 seconds delta time) stops were the wheel gun issues hinted at during the race, Audi Sport need to find some new pit crew guys. Their tire changes have been at times horrible the past couple of races.

Again, I do wonder if the Joest guys can cut it and if Audi Sport are better doing things in-house like TMG and Porsche Motorsport are doing.

.

Don't Oreca run Toyota's race operations?

[Akrapovic]

They do. I was considering posting that, but it might be worth asking in the Toyota thread or a Toyota fan how much influence ORECA has. But they are involved in the operations, hence why we haven't seen ORECA team competing.

[Starfish Primer]

VW's Audi delays tech projects at German base as it cuts costs

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-vo...technologyNews

[chernaudi]

Odd move given how much VAG are now trying to push hybrid/electric cars to try and bury dieselgate (Audi and Porsche were marketing hybrid cars well before VW themselves were, and Audi are supposed to be working on hydrogen fuel cells and Porsche pure electric cars). Also, a US Judge in California is very close to approving a settlement that VAG are offering to the US Government, the EPA, and consumer groups and customers to settle fines, fees, and lawsuits filed by the US Gov't, the EPA and VW car owners. The deal is reportedly for $10-15 billion USD and includes costs for buying back/repairing effected cars and giving a $5000-10,000 payment to effected owners.

This also includes restitution for fines and lawsuits filed by US Gov't agencies, carbon credits, and supporting "green" initiatives.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

VW's Audi delays tech projects at German base as it cuts costs

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-vo...technologyNews

Bad times. And maybe no R8 replacement. Shouldn't have done all that fraud, I guess.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/in...ampaign=buffer

[GasperG]

In Paris motor show I had a feeling that VAG is intending to leap directly to BEV and skip hybrid powertrains. If they didn't dominate the market with Jetta hybrid, then they probably won't dominate the market with Audi A3 e-tron. I mean Volt is not exactly a seller but it's still selling 7x better than Audi A3 e-tron.

IMO not a vise decision, because Toyota will be gaining more and more market share in conventional powertrains, because their hybrids are becoming just that - conventional gassers, with a price tag of turbo, direct injected, DCT, 48V systems ...

And I'm afraid that is exactly what we will see in WEC, Toyota with full motivation on hybrids and others migrating to Formula E I hope we will still get close fights in 2017, but further I'm afraid the picture is not so bright. Maybe hydrogen will come into play, but I doubt that we will se it in 2018, probably on the next bigger regulation change in 2023.

[Coach Ep]

Sad news (posted here because he was heavily involved with the early Audi prototype programs):

http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/13559...bs-to-injuries

and

http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/13556...o-hospice-care

[Artur]

Incredible how audi managed to lose all races after lm despite having the fastest car everywhere. I already expected their dominant pace on cota but the other venues displayed how good the hd r18 is. About the future of audi, i wish they had been developing the hydrogen fuel cell tech cause i saw a great prospect of it on tv show 'tech toys 360',with the welsh rasa car...

[chernaudi]

The problem is BOP as far as EOT. They lost Nurburgring, Mexico and COTA because of getting caught out by FCYs where they had to pit before Porsche had to due to shorter range on fuel. Those are three wins that went away because of getting screwed on EOT. I believe that if this is a threat as opposed to a serious consideration that Audi are trying what AMR and Toyota have done in the past (and probably Porsche getting back in), and campaign for BOP changes not just for next season, but also the 2018 regs. IMO, kinda a dirty game, but fair play to Audi, since their competitors have pulled it on them several times though the years.

Fuji was lost because of a couple of bungled pit stops, which I'm placing that at the feet of Joest, who have IMO lost their edge the past couple of years on pit road. Maybe Audi Sport should raid their DTM teams for new tire changers.

[Lasse]

EOT?

[Akrapovic]

Equivalence of Technology. The rules which try to make sure a diesel V6 has around the same performance as a petrol v4, as a flywheel, as a battery etc. They try to balance the performance on the options but allow them to have different advantages and disadvantages. Not quite the same as BOP, but the same idea.

[Creep89]

According to Sportscar-Info.de (/Sueddeutsche Zeitung) Audi will bury their LMP1 project.

http://sportscar-info.de/2016/10/24/...inen-ausstieg/

[MihokS5]

Wow, it says that Dr.Ulrich resigned already

[J Jay]

That's a bold set of claims to make, but the rumours have been gathering pace for a while now. I can see Ullrich leaving with LMP1 should it happen, I doubt DTM would keep his interest at this stage of his career.

We'll see on Monday...

[chernaudi]

If that happens, I know what I'll be doing on my Saturdays and Sundays from now on. And even if Audi Sport leaving the WEC is just a threat, it should be a wake up call to the ACO with their house of cards LMP1 rules.

[Starfish Primer]

Meanwhile VW keeps the WRC program with 3 cars and Porsche has budget to develop the new GTE.

Perhaps the question is if the diesel engine is still competitive and are evaluating the transition costs to another technology ( Hydrogen ? ).

[chernaudi]

I see it this way: Audi dominated the first two WEC seasons on a budget of about $85 million USD annually. From '14-present, they've spent almost twice as much to constantly be second best. Naturally, people, dieselgate or no, will start to ask questions of if this worth it from a ROI stand point. And sadly, the past few years, even in LMP1, evolution has forced teams to go down similar avenues for performance reasons.

You can have a hugely open rule book that pushes such tech without it coming at a price. And sadly, limiting private testing and wind tunnel time is a band-aid being used on someone who just got their head blown off. If the WEC really wanna drop cost, they can't have these 3-4 year deals with technical rules and pushing teams to push ultra-high tech to the limit in such a short period of time. That's what's jacked up the cost in LMP1 so much for even factory teams.

Toyota have harped about cost cutting since day one, Peugeot and BMW getting into LMP1 is conditional on cost containment, and now Audi are saying/rumored to be saying that their continued involvement in the class is contingent on cost control. Even Porsche have mentioned cost containment a few times the past year in a half.

I do hope that the ACO are listening, because every time that they've developed rules that require damn near a back of the field/mid-pack F1 budget to be competitive, the bubble bursts.

[Starfish Primer]

An option for the ACO is just let the economic cycle go, wait for the bubble burst and new manufacturers coming ( Peugeot, Jaguar, Hyundai, Geely... ). If Audi leaves, the cost barrier for the new will drop significantly.

[chernaudi]

Sadly, I think that Audi leaving the WEC might be what it takes for the ACO to listen to those who want reduced costs to compete.

However, when one considers that VAG haven't reportedly touched the VW WRC program, and are continuing to fund the new Porsche 911 GTE program as if nothing's happened, and that a settlement for the North American part of dieselgate is reportedly only days away from being signed off on, I'm thinking that dieselgate/"cost cutting" isn't the initiative here for Audi.

I think it's got a lot more to do with frustration and cynicism over the current WEC technical regs, which in part have cost Audi 3-4 race wins this year (or at least contributed to those losses), that Audi reportedly were told one thing by the ACO then they did another when it was too late for Audi Sport to respond, and what the 2018 rules might hold. Between lobbying and hold the threat of a possible pull out over the heads of the ACO, I'd have to say that the endgame here for Audi to get rules more fair for them and more inline with their own goals.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I think it's got a lot more to do with frustration and cynicism over the current WEC technical regs, which in part have cost Audi 3-4 race wins this year (or at least contributed to those losses), that Audi reportedly were told one thing by the ACO then they did another when it was too late for Audi Sport to respond, and what the 2018 rules might hold. Between lobbying and hold the threat of a possible pull out over the heads of the ACO, I'd have to say that the endgame here for Audi to get rules more fair for them and more inline with their own goals.

Which, again, shockingly enough... Is something I said awhile ago and others have also said, not so surprisingly, the head of Peugeot Sport.

The costs are out of control on the hybrid class, and it's completely unsustainable.

[Starfish Primer]

Didn´t Audi commit for Formula-e 2018?