GT3 v's Supercar v's SuperTouring v's TCR - The Ultimate Thread

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Mixer

MARC has proven you can make something look good and race fast, and still have some showroom look to it, but we're still talking a $250k car to build, right?

IMO can't build a fully fledged racing car for much less than $100k-150k at a minimum, it's just a question of the hours involved to build it as well as the components. Not if you are paying for the labour like a professional racing team, unlike the club racers doing over a few beers with their mates.

$10k for a professional grade suspension
$5+k for brakes including calipers and rotors
$10k for a brand new production crate engine, $100k for a supercars spec racing engine
$2+k for an aftermarket engine control unit
$20k for a racing sequential gearbox
$5k for a mild steel roll cage, more for the Supercars style chrome-moly
$1k just for the carbon race seat!
Hydraulic jacking system, CNC machined uprights, fabricated control arms etc
Plus all the labour hours, shop space, equipment, overheads

It all adds up, I think? :/

Even a simple thing like springs: I think Supercars team used to use the Australian-made King racing coilover springs, $150/pair, these days at the top level they probably use the Swift springs (which are lighter and have better tolerances to their nominal spring rate) which are $400-500/pair for springs IIRC. And obviously a supercar team will carry all the spring rates from 3, 4, 5, - 17, 18, 19, 20 kg/mm... That's a lot of pairs of springs!

Even TCRs are $150k turn-key, and they are using basic stock block production engines.

A question of build quality too... If you look at Brocky's 1993 Advantage Racing VP it's pretty rudimentary, whereas this 2011 Walkinshaw Commodore is beautifully turned out: https://duttongarage.com/Holden-VE-C...Supercar~17768 It's all lots of expensive labour hours!

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by peckstar

You would think the current supercars format as a mustang would be easier to achieve

Ford aren't interested in Supercars, so what's this about a Mustang?

It would be focus on the actual participants manufacturers: Holden and Nissan, and design some regulations to meet their requirements. V6 twin-turbo Captiva vs X-Trail? SUVs are where the market is at after all, why hang on to sedans, which are an unpopular segment.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by peckstar

You would think the current supercars format as a mustang would be easier to achieve

But TA2 could be used for a series that requires no manufacturer support.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Ford aren't interested in Supercars, so what's this about a Mustang?

It would be focus on the actual participants manufacturers: Holden and Nissan, and design some regulations to meet their requirements. V6 twin-turbo Captiva vs X-Trail? SUVs are where the market is at after all, why hang on to sedans, which are an unpopular segment.

if you followed the conversation you would see we referring to a TA2 discusion, which included camaros, challengers and mustangs.

If Ford are interested or not may be irrelevant. besides no one knows if they are interested. Maybe they are just looking for the right arrangment which they have not been offered yet

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by peckstar

if you followed the conversation you would see we referring to a TA2 discusion, which included camaros, challengers and mustangs.

Indeed, I am watching the American Trans-Am series seems to have three classes.

Trans-Am 1: Heavily sculpted Vipers, Corvettes, "Mustangs" with much more aerodynamic shape, & also Porsche cup cars for some reason (!?)

Trans-Am 2: The Camaros, Challengers and Mustangs with somewhat production shaped fibre-glass bodies, they seem to be more standardised.

Trans-Am 3: Production based muscle cars

Certainly it could be a good model for Supercars to follow. The Trans-Am 2 class seems to be the closest and most fun. The random mix of cars in Trans-Am 1 seems a bit strange. Trans-Am 3 is probably a bit like improved production or GT4.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Indeed, I am watching the American Trans-Am series seems to have three classes.

Trans-Am 1: Heavily sculpted Vipers, Corvettes, "Mustangs" with much more aerodynamic shape, & also Porsche cup cars for some reason (!?)

Trans-Am 2: The Camaros, Challengers and Mustangs with somewhat production shaped fibre-glass bodies, they seem to be more standardised.

Trans-Am 3: Production based muscle cars

Certainly it could be a good model for Supercars to follow. The Trans-Am 2 class seems to be the closest and most fun. The random mix of cars in Trans-Am 1 seems a bit strange. Trans-Am 3 is probably a bit like improved production or GT4.

Was referring to the TA2 australia link Chavez provided

[rich07]

Costs have to come down regardless of the avenue pursued.

The day of having a number of 100k engines as spares is not sustainable with manufacturer dollars leaving the sport.

GT3 engines may be cheaper (they still look expensive) but their service costs are much better then a current Supercar engine.

I'm expecting Peckstar to roll in and dump all over this post purely because I mentioned GT3 but you can't hide the fact that costs as they stand are not sustainable. And I'm not suggesting that GT3 engine are the solution.

I can appreciate the fact that the top series in the land shouldn't have control engines. As a purist its not right and I'd love to see an all out horsepower war but the reality is this is just not sustainable.

Whatever happens next for this category has to be more cost effective. Gone are the days are manufacturers tipping in millions of dollars, Holden wouldn't put in anywhere as much as they used to. Ford don't put in anything and Nissan probably are looking at why have sunk tens of millions of dollars into the category with results that don't reflect that spend.

Costs pretty much have to be halved

Lap times aren't everything.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Even TCRs are $150k turn-key, and they are using basic stock block production engines.

It is interesting that VW nominally sold the Golf TCR for 85k UK pounds, which is near enough to 150k AUD - but they built only 20 so you can't buy one.

Given the Audi S3 TCR runs the same engine, I'm seriously not sure how Audi can justify the apparent $300k ask for it!

If you could run a road-relevant series with broad manufacturer support based around $150k cars then I think you have something interesting, perhaps if not for fans...

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by rich07

I can appreciate the fact that the top series in the land shouldn't have control engines.

Just put a stock block 7L Chevy LS in every car, worked in New Zealand (for a little while anyway).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9GW5WhJLnU

Originally Posted by Mixer

It is interesting that VW nominally sold the Golf TCR for 85k UK pounds, which is near enough to 150k AUD - but they built only 20 so you can't buy one.

Thankfully you can get a JAS-racing Honda Civic Type R instead.

[Umai Naa]

One season old Opel Astra TCR was circa £65K, that I saw.

TCR are apparently a little dirty at Audi for over-pricing the RS3, however Audi feels it's justified in build quality and safety features alone. Not to mention the after sales service you'd get.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by rich07

Costs have to come down regardless of the avenue pursued.

The day of having a number of 100k engines as spares is not sustainable with manufacturer dollars leaving the sport.

GT3 engines may be cheaper (they still look expensive) but their service costs are much better then a current Supercar engine.

You can't hide the fact that costs as they stand are not sustainable. And I'm not suggesting that GT3 engine are the solution.

I can appreciate the fact that the top series in the land shouldn't have control engines. As a purist its not right and I'd love to see an all out horsepower war but the reality is this is just not sustainable.

Whatever happens next for this category has to be more cost effective. Gone are the days are manufacturers tipping in millions of dollars, Holden wouldn't put in anywhere as much as they used to. Ford don't put in anything and Nissan probably are looking at why have sunk tens of millions of dollars into the category with results that don't reflect that spend.

Costs pretty much have to be halved

Good post.

just leave me out of it next time

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

TCR are apparently a little dirty at Audi for over-pricing the RS3,

Indeed. The point of these classes is that they are supposed to be perform equally and be within a price cap, else the price and performance can run away like it did in GT3.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Indeed. The point of these classes is that they are supposed to be perform equally and be within a price cap, else the price and performance can run away like it did in GT3.

How do you stop it. Thats the nature of competitive production based racing. Its starts well but manufacturers dont like there brand losing so they build a better car, then the next brand builds a better car and so on. Like in your excample.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Mixer

It is interesting that VW nominally sold the Golf TCR for 85k UK pounds, which is near enough to 150k AUD - but they built only 20 so you can't buy one.

Given the Audi S3 TCR runs the same engine, I'm seriously not sure how Audi can justify the apparent $300k ask for it!

If you could run a road-relevant series with broad manufacturer support based around $150k cars then I think you have something interesting, perhaps if not for fans...

Peugeot Sport confirmed the pre-tax price of the car is 74,900 EUR, significantly below the TCR price cap of 130,000 EUR, with the latest top spec Audi RS 3 priced at 129,000 EUR, and the most popular SEAT León TCR sold for 110,000 EUR.

https://www.touringcartimes.com/2016...08-racing-cup/

130k Euro = 192k AUD

The Peugeot is developed for a one make series and has only a 1.6L engine instead of 2L engine so not fully TCR spec but in TCR Benelux it's competative.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by FIRE

130k Euro = 192k AUD

Nice Australia tax on the RS3 TCR from Audi there, at least $70k AUD overpriced.

[Umai Naa]

5-door Mini in the works, according to another thread on here.

Another car relephant to our market.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

5-door Mini in the works, according to another thread on here.

Another car relephant to our market.

Yes, yes it is!

http://www.caradvice.com.au/339563/2...e-door-review/

[Umai Naa]

No, I meant a TCR machine.

[Mixer]

Wonderful look here from the supposed top touring car class in the world:
http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/tourin...-de-1796401059

[Umai Naa]

WTCC is on death's nell anyway.

[one five five]

It's supposedly been on it's death knell since about 2010 when BMW and Seat pulled their factory backing out and left only Chevrolet at the front on their own

The series has a strange knack of being able to keep on keeping on as it is, I don't think Eurosport will let it die off

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

WTCC is on death's nell anyway.

Yeah WTCC hasn't been the same since the glory days of ETCC in the 2000s. ETCC being WTCC in all but name. Ah the LG Super Racing Weekend double header with FIA GT was awesome. They really need to go to TCR regs these days though.

[Umai Naa]

In all fairness, TCR are their main competitor.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Wonderful look here from the supposed top touring car class in the world:
http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/tourin...-de-1796401059

The driver is supposed to hit the concrete wall, directly at the end of the runoff. A poorly designed runoff area.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

In all fairness, TCR are their main competitor.

The cost and standardisation of TCR seems compelling compared to the vague details and unproven parity of Supercar's Superutes. It would be a great to see a TCR class featuring cars originally designed to be driven flat-out instead of off-road utility vehicles better suited for towing boats.