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Old 5 May 2003, 16:21 (Ref:590139)   #1
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mild rant

why are there so many cars out these days that don't have external electric cut-offs?

specifically formula single-seater & TVR tuscans from this weekend. but there seem to be a lot these days generally

I got told to shut up by one of the mechanics of a formula ford team last year when i politely, but pointedly asked where it was.

has someone changed the rules & not told me?
or are scrutineers getting bribed into looking the other way?

and don't get me started on the F3's single switch...
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Old 6 May 2003, 08:57 (Ref:590674)   #2
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I don't have a blue book with me, but aren't they supposed to be accessible from outside, not neccessarily outside themselves. Most modern single seaters have a loop inside the roll bar which with one pull operates the switch and with a further pull operates the fire extinguisher.
I wouldn't like to put money on them working though.
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Old 6 May 2003, 09:45 (Ref:590723)   #3
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Everytime my car has been through scrutineering in the last two years they have checked the operation of the external electric cut off, either by having the engine running or wipers on etc. I guess MGCC scrutes must be more thorough than some!
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Old 6 May 2003, 09:58 (Ref:590738)   #4
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Originally posted by Bob Pearson
I don't have a blue book with me, but aren't they supposed to be accessible from outside, not neccessarily outside themselves.
The Blue Book specifies mounting positions which should ensure accessibilty from outside.

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Most modern single seaters have a loop inside the roll bar which with one pull operates the switch and with a further pull operates the fire extinguisher.
I wouldn't like to put money on them working though.
Those things should be illegal! If I need to get the electrics off in a hurry, I'll just give it a yank - if the extinguishers goes off, tough!
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Old 6 May 2003, 10:47 (Ref:590771)   #5
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It goes to show that the manufacturers don't think of the consequences when the poor driver has an accident and marshals need to isolate the power. Like you I find the dual switches a pain to operate as we don't willingly want to create extra expense for the driver by setting off the fire extinguisher!
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Old 6 May 2003, 12:33 (Ref:590895)   #6
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Originally posted by Stephen Green
Like you I find the dual switches a pain to operate as we don't willingly want to create extra expense for the driver by setting off the fire extinguisher!
I've heard of an incident at Oulton, I think with a GT car, where a marshal pulled one & inadvertently set off the extinguisher. Anticipating a complaint from the team, the observer put in an immediate complaint to race control about the system they were using - 'retaliate first' is always a good policy!
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Old 6 May 2003, 13:09 (Ref:590955)   #7
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Most marshals I come into contact with simply ask me as I am trudging through the gravel if I have switched it off. If I have done that it is all solved, if I haven't then I go back and do it. The vagueries of any particular car only come into play in the event of injury, fortunately that is extremely rare.
In my opinion on board extinguishers are a waste of time, If any of us were to suffer a fire in mid flight we could simply stop at a marshals post and leave it to those best qualified. The chances of a fire and an injury following an accident are so unlikely that I think it is still best left to yourselves and your extinguishers rather than you expecting to find a switch or something similar through the flames and smoke.
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Old 6 May 2003, 13:15 (Ref:590963)   #8
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I understand your comments Bob and thankfully in 99 percent of cases you are right. Just imagine that you are racing at a small club meeting, marshals numbers are severely limited and so one marshal may be covering several duries. You are unfortunate enough to suffer a front end accident in which one of your legs are trapped under the pedals. The marshal may be some 50 yards away but your car is on fire. As things stand at the moment, you are able to set off your on board extinguisher thus giving yourself valuable breathing space (excuse the use of the word breathing under these circumstances) before the marshal arrives on scene.

It is also worth mentioning that despite our continued efforts to get marshals to take an extinguisher to an accident, it doesn't always happen.

I am sure you can see the need for an extinguisher now?
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Old 6 May 2003, 13:59 (Ref:591010)   #9
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Quote:
I've heard of an incident at Oulton, I think with a GT car, where a marshal pulled one & inadvertently set off the extinguisher. Anticipating a complaint from the team, the observer put in an immediate complaint to race control about the system they were using - 'retaliate first' is always a good policy!
That may well have been me last year

Still, I had asked the driver three times to turn off the electrics himself as I was a tad worried about all the smoke coming out of the engine bay. The problem I've always found with the double-pull switches is that it's very difficult to feel the first pull. I'd much prefer to see mandatory separate switches, or as Bob says, do away with on-board extinguishers altogether.
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Old 6 May 2003, 14:09 (Ref:591017)   #10
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Seperate switches gets my vote. It's a nightmare trying to pull a two strength switch when wearing welding gloves!
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Old 6 May 2003, 14:49 (Ref:591064)   #11
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Stephen, that was a dreadful scenario you described, but I am sure you realise that we realise that these things are always possible and we accept it. The reason I don't favour on car extinguishers is because they are not reliable. I know of plenty that have been set of and only spat a tiny drop out. Even if they do go off completely the contents are quite small compared with yours.
I would far prefer a situation where you trained all your guys and gals to always take the extinguisher because the cars do not have a fitted one and so we rely on you to look after us.
The chances of the scenario you descibed actually taking place fortunately are tiny. We probably stand more chances of burning ourselves fuelling up the cars in the garages!!
Especially when a certain pit lane marshal walks through with a fag on!!
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Old 6 May 2003, 14:56 (Ref:591075)   #12
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Well it is drummed in at every training day but, in the heat of the moment etc etc.
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Old 6 May 2003, 15:37 (Ref:591119)   #13
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neil_davidson2 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridneil_davidson2 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
So what are the existing regs covering on-board extinguishers? Do they just have to be there or are they tested for effectiveness?

To back up Bob's comments I attended a fire in a saloon car last year, the onboard extinguisher had been triggered by the driver on his way out and it successfully filled the driver's footwell with foam. Sadly the fire was in the engine compartment and hadn't been touched - the upside was that it was quickly dealt with by trackside extinguishers.
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Old 6 May 2003, 18:16 (Ref:591305)   #14
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Originally posted by Bob Pearson
I would far prefer a situation where you trained all your guys and gals to always take the extinguisher because the cars do not have a fitted one and so we rely on you to look after us.
We are trained to take a bottle to every incident & most observers/IOs will make a point of it in their briefing.

'Bottle to every incident' is the incident marshals' mantra!
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Old 6 May 2003, 21:08 (Ref:591569)   #15
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JimW should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJimW should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJimW should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJimW should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Lots of good stuff in this thread.

Onboard Fire extinguishers are for the use of drivers and co-drivers and any use by marshals is (in my opinion) entirely secondary to the use of the extinguishers they have taken to the car themselves. (As with everything else, this aspect of rallying can be different!)

Any driver/team who fits a system which does not have two, entirely separate and clearly marked externally operable switches is just begging for the extinguisher to be set off.

Any marshal who trusts a driver to have turned off the master switch has an entirely over-developed sense of the understanding of others and an inadequate understanding of the marshal's role trackside.

Of the approximately 10 on-board systems I have attempted to trigger over many years at least four have failed. Usually from having the pins left in! Bad driver! Naughty driver!

Anyone who believes that scrutineers rigorously test either the marking of switches or their proper operation is likely to be in for a sad disappointment. A casual inspection of a few cars at Donington last weekend revealed a substantial number without markings.

And ask the team who went to the nice Lola on fire during the green flag lap how well the master switch worked! The fuel pumps clearly had a separate line into their own electricity supply!

On-board extinguishers are directed towards the saving of life (like marshals), not cars. Whether you do this better by directing the limited amount of media to covering the driver area (which is what you are interested in) or the most likely source of most fires (the engine area) is a moot point. Both is best but who wants to tow the trailer-full of media that would be necessary? And yes, we do work for preserving cars as our next priority.

And I had a nice thank you from a driver whose small oil fire I helped Ken Fermoyle put out in the pits at Mallory this Saturday.

Regards

Jim
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Old 7 May 2003, 12:13 (Ref:592296)   #16
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Most marshals I come into contact with.....
Ouch!
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Old 7 May 2003, 12:25 (Ref:592311)   #17
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It concerns me that drivers would rather rely on volunteer marshals (currently a dwindling resource) rather than install and maintain their own fire defence systems.

Stephen's scenario is not that unlikely (sorry about the double negative!)

Another example is a very real one, if I understand it correctly at Croft on Friday during F3 testing Rob Austin had an "off" and ended up upsidedown in one of the fields adjoining the circuit. Unfortunately none of the circuit staff saw him go off and no-one knew he was there until one of the other competitors returned to the pit lane to tell his team that the session should be stopped. From what I'm told Rob had difficulty getting out of the car because of the position he had ended up in. What price an on-board fire extinguisher in that situation if the car had caught fire?
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Old 7 May 2003, 12:50 (Ref:592334)   #18
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Excellent example. Surely the more safety concious you are the better?
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Old 7 May 2003, 13:53 (Ref:592394)   #19
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Piglet raises another good point there - marshal's are a dwindling resource on saturday's and sunday's...and I'm guessing rarer than rooster's teeth on test days.

On racedays if you have a fire there's every liklihood that you'll get assistance pretty quickly, on test days you're relying on being spotted either from race control on camera or by circuit staff positioned around the circuit.

I think Stephen is right, I'd rather see onboard extinguishers improved than take the view that they're not much good so take them out.
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Old 7 May 2003, 14:53 (Ref:592454)   #20
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It would be comforting to know we had a system that could be relied on. I think the cable operated devices are the least likely to work, and the capacity of all types is so small ( space available in a single seater) that there seems little point in operating them ( even if they did work). We have had two cars with electrical systems, both from reputable suppliers which had wiring which was so poor that it was for ever breaking at the soldered joints.
In this enlightened age someone must be capable of producing a circuit board and loom cable of running fault free for at least 10 years. If that ever happened I would revise my opinion slightly, although it still wouldn't have got over the problem of the inadequate capacity.
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Old 7 May 2003, 18:05 (Ref:592647)   #21
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Well this weekend when were at the racing why dont we ask a driver or a scrutineer what the rules are and why they are not being followed (unless they are)?
I think I will be in the pit lane this weekend so ill try and get someone to talk to and get back with anything they tell me.
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Old 8 May 2003, 08:23 (Ref:593199)   #22
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What circuit are you at this week-end Anna
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Old 8 May 2003, 12:58 (Ref:593460)   #23
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I'll be at Lydden Bob if you are planning to go there?
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Old 8 May 2003, 13:21 (Ref:593497)   #24
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No,
we are at Pembrey from tonight to Sunday night.
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