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18 Nov 2010, 15:47 (Ref:2792685) | #1 | |
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Alonso's radio call, Abu Dhabi
First of all, hallo, I'm a new user, an emigre from the childrens' playground that has become the B*C Motorsport Message boards, and someone looking for some in-depth, objective and typically impartial F1 chat on mainstream and niche subject matter.
Background summary: Formula 1 is an overriding interest and passion in my life, has certainly been so since the 1999 season. I love not just the racing and the politics, but the scenery, atmosphere, rivalry, science, aesthetics, striped chicanes, ribbons of tarmac, the sound of a screaming V8. Or put simply, the detail of the sport. Enough about me. I thought I might try the topic below as a starter... -------------------------------- ALONSO'S RADIO CALL- ABU DHABI Leafing through F1Fan**ics, I came across an interesting blog containing a transcript of some radio messages passed between Alonso and his engineer on the pitwall. Here is a particularly interesting communique from the transcript: Lap 12 Webber pits. AS: “Webber has stopped and Vettel is also losing ground on Hamilton.” Fernando Alonso: “If you see that Felipe can overtake him in a lap call him in.” AS: “We are thinking about it, concentrate on Button.” What this appears to show is that, as part of the agreement that Felipe would support Alonso, whether pre-existing or as a result of developments in the season, Alonso has the authority to control the actions of his teammate from the cockpit. Granted, it may be simply the result of soupef-up team-orders applied in a championship deciding race, but even so it apparently applies a level of control on the part of Alonso, and deference on the part of Massa (if he was aware that Alonso might control his teammate's race from the cockpit, which I presume he was) that I had not previously thought likely. Am I alone in thinking this? Chicanery |
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18 Nov 2010, 16:15 (Ref:2792693) | #2 | |
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Welcome aboard
Like Schumacher before him, it certainly appears that Alonso is granted the authority to make (or give input into) strategic calls from the cockpit, which takes a certain presence of mind on his behalf. I wonder if the decision to pit when he did was also partly his own decision. |
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18 Nov 2010, 16:26 (Ref:2792707) | #3 | |
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Thing is, he needed to drive just the one car to become WDC...
oh, and welcome too! |
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18 Nov 2010, 16:33 (Ref:2792712) | #4 | |
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Super Hans, to adopt a phrase from your namesake, and regarding Alonso's apparent cockpit authority from the point of view of Massa, "This is bullsh*t"!
I don't want to seem anti-Alonso in general, but it does strike me as unsavoury that Alonso has been given this authority. I can hardly imagine the Red Bull guys suggesting strategy for their respective teammates- though I accept the instance is in part different, both being in the title hunt in Abu Dhabi. But this sort of thing is nonetheless not condusive to equal playing fields. It also lessens the achievment. On the other hand, and as Super Hans said, it is mightly impressive that Alonso, like Schumacher, is able to devote sufficient attention to strategy whilst driving. |
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18 Nov 2010, 20:11 (Ref:2792806) | #5 | |||
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I think what should be under more scrutiny is the fact that Massa wasn't good enough to do what Alonso wanted him to do |
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F1 fans - over-reacting about everything since forever |
18 Nov 2010, 20:54 (Ref:2792825) | #6 | |||
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One thing is for certain and we all know already, Massa is not as good as Teflonso, and we'll never be. Another completely different thing is that he must do what Teflonso wants. And IF that's the case, why Teflonso (like TGF) is not good enough to have his championship without a helping team mate ? This is what he wanted in McLaren and didn't receive, and now he wants at Ferrari. This is the deserving champion then ? I think what should be under scrutiny is why Double World Champion Fudendo Teflonso needs help from his team mate. |
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Show me a man who won't give it to his woman An' I'll show you somebody who will |
18 Nov 2010, 21:07 (Ref:2792832) | #7 | |
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20 Nov 2010, 21:42 (Ref:2793598) | #8 | |||
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Did anyone actually HEAR that radio call? As in: is it real or are we just speculating about some made-up stuff? |
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26 Nov 2010, 17:11 (Ref:2796150) | #9 | |
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Or the fact that Alonso wasn't good enough to do what he wanted to!
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18 Nov 2010, 16:38 (Ref:2792716) | #10 | ||
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"Never pick a fight with an ugly person, they've got nothing to lose." |
18 Nov 2010, 16:40 (Ref:2792718) | #11 | |
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Osella, Hi and thanks for the welcome!
Yup, had Alonso concentrated more on his own driving, he may have gained from it. It would also have allowed the pit wall more thinking time to realise (oh hindsight is a wonderful thing) that mirroring Webber might leave you horribly exposed to Vettel. |
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18 Nov 2010, 17:24 (Ref:2792733) | #12 | |
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F1 isnt supposed to be an equal playing field tho.
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18 Nov 2010, 17:40 (Ref:2792737) | #13 | ||
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I wonder what would have happened if Webber pitted at the same time as Petrov?
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21 Nov 2010, 17:51 (Ref:2793895) | #14 | ||
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I'm supposed to respect my elders, but it's getting harder and harder for me to find one now. |
18 Nov 2010, 17:43 (Ref:2792739) | #15 | ||
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Well, Alonso is a genius in all extent of the word. He has showed this before. I wouldn't be surprised if this level of influence is written in the contract, right in the middle of Santander's demands...
Uhn... No, on second thoughts that would be unnecessary, just like the radio in Germany. But the second part of the radio conversation is certainly most striking... "We are thinking about it, concentrate on Button" It leads to two arguments, and one of them that goes against Super Hans' thoughts... 1 - Ferrari (or at least his engineer) doesn't think he's good at "strategic input" and simply dismiss the idea with that answer... meaning "keep driving, that's your job". 2 - Ferrari doesn't think Massa was any help and simply dismiss the idea as BS. I also do this sometimes with rookies. |
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19 Nov 2010, 00:36 (Ref:2792917) | #16 | ||
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At that point though it would have been stupid for Massa not to help out. It is a team game, and Massa would not have gained anything by not helping out. It's not so much Alonso needing help, but a certain situation where the taem as a unit can work together to get the title.
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21 Nov 2010, 22:32 (Ref:2793997) | #17 | ||
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22 Nov 2010, 17:32 (Ref:2794340) | #18 | ||
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"Sky has closed in,........and yet again we have challenging, and changable conditions for the drivers" (Martin Brundle Hungry 2011, the weekend of the sky deal confirmation) |
22 Nov 2010, 18:20 (Ref:2794363) | #19 | ||
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Of course I'm for real. And I agree that the constructor's championship is a championship for the whole team. My objection is to the people who keep on saying "It's a team sport" as an excuse for manipulating the Drivers Championship. If the Drivers Championship is going to be decided by the combined efforts of the two drivers in a team, then we don't need both a Drivers Championship and a Constructors Championship.
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22 Nov 2010, 18:56 (Ref:2794381) | #20 | |||
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Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously. |
23 Nov 2010, 14:17 (Ref:2794721) | #21 | |||
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What, then, do you think is the right context? |
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19 Nov 2010, 18:19 (Ref:2793179) | #22 | |
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Guys, to be clear, I don't think anyone would suggest that Massa shouldn't have been asked to help out in Abu Dhabi- final race, close championship, two red bull drivers vying etc.
Rather, the point I was making is that it was surprising that, in that race, team orders were coming from the pit wall AND the cockpit of the lead driver. To me that smacks not just of having a lead driver, but more, perhaps someone with more authority than a typical driver, more in the mould of Schumacher in his Ferrari days. Personally, I thought that level of advantage within a team created an unlevel playing field between other drivers from rival teams. Sure, you could say that other drivers could set out to do what Schumacher and (arguably) Alonso did/do. Personally however, I wouldn't want that scenario repeated throughout the sport. Not only does it reduce the number of drivers with the chance of going for the championship, it also requires a decided lack of support for the second driver. Those like Massa and Fisi may not have performed well with Alonso, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they are operating at their full reach. Thoughts coming to mind include Massa's stunning '08 season, Irvine in 1999 post Silverstone. |
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22 Nov 2010, 19:05 (Ref:2794389) | #23 | ||
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23 Nov 2010, 10:40 (Ref:2794637) | #24 | ||
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Ultimately a lead driver is only ever going to be able to win a WDC with the best team of engineers, designers and strategists around him.
As we have seen repeatedly a top driver is limited by the factors above (plus a good development budget to put in place the updates to a car over a year.) Ultimately a good team in the background is more important than a top driver 'leading' the show. We have seen many occassions when this has been proven both ways, where the best car wins with not the best driver at the wheel (ie as we saw with Webber leading the drivers championship for most of the year) and of course where the (alleged at the time) best driver has struggled with a less than best car package.(ie Shumacher /Ferrari in 2005) Lets not forget it is the team (WCC) championship which earns the teams the dollars to go racing, and most teams would prioritise the WCC result. RBR staff for instance had all their bonuses paid on the WCC result, although Vettel received a seperate and additional WDC bonus from the team. RBR earnt nothing in $$$ terms for winning the WDC, although clearly it earnt them the media and TV coverage and brand exposure that keeps the sponsors happy (in the case of this year the team owner was the sponsor of course) and gives those in F1 sponsorship the justification to put their corporate profits on the line. Who was the real winner in 2010? The nost important person at RBR? Well, if you are honest then Adrian Newey and his technical team were. He / they gave the RBR drivers the best equipment and package to do the job, despite other areas of team management and both drivers doing their utmost at times to nullify the advantage he gave them. Without his department RBR would have potentially been a nothing team regardless of the drivers input or demands. Last edited by E.B; 23 Nov 2010 at 10:47. |
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23 Nov 2010, 19:25 (Ref:2794836) | #25 | ||
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