NZV8's 2011/12

[Stockman]

Confusion reigns..........

ex Motorsport NZ press releases...
re New NZV8's "A new technical specification schedule will be prepared by MotorSport New Zealand " ........so will Motorsport NZ own the intellectual property of this new class as they do with schedule TL.

"When the new NZV8s championship car is tested ready for racing, competitors will be invited to purchase them. They are expected to cost approximately $150,000 in ready to race form. MSNZ owns the designs and jigs for the new car and will not release them for sale until satisfied they are ready for competition."


So neither "NZV8's" nor "NZ Vee Eight Entrants Group Assn Ltd" has any ownership in either the class, jigs or builds ?

Is it the job of the governing body of Motorsport in New Zealand to own a particular race class ? and promote that over and above other classes ?

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Stockman

Confusion reigns..........

ex Motorsport NZ press releases...
re New NZV8's "A new technical specification schedule will be prepared by MotorSport New Zealand " ........so will Motorsport NZ own the intellectual property of this new class as they do with schedule TL.

"When the new NZV8s championship car is tested ready for racing, competitors will be invited to purchase them. They are expected to cost approximately $150,000 in ready to race form. MSNZ owns the designs and jigs for the new car and will not release them for sale until satisfied they are ready for competition."


So neither "NZV8's" nor "NZ Vee Eight Entrants Group Assn Ltd" has any ownership in either the class, jigs or builds ?

Is it the job of the governing body of Motorsport in New Zealand to own a particular race class ? and promote that over and above other classes ?

The answer to your last question should certainly be a NO. It is perhaps unconstitutional for MSNZ to be taking a commercial involvement in one class to the potential detriment of the rest of the motor sport fraternity.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is more to MSNZ owning the designs and jigs for the new car - perhaps it could have something to do with the TV people requiring $100k up front before they would cover any Tier 1 races - no doubt TMC were short of the readies and MSNZ had to come to the party and find a reason to give member's money to TMC - the purchase of design and jigs could have been an excuse ....

[promax]

hmmm so is there really going to be an ITM Commodore at the Manfeild round?

[Icarus_nz]

Interesting isn't it?
Something stinks...

[Goat Boy]

Yes! Perhaps there really is a case for getting Sainsbury or someone on the case!

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Interesting isn't it?
Something stinks...

I suspect it has for some time in particular areas...

[Stockman]

Constitution of Motorsport New Zealand Inc

Objects:
3.0 The objects of Motorsport are to:
3.1 encourage participation, promote and administer the various sports involving automobiles with four or more wheels ("automobile sport")
3.2 arrange and control competitions for automobile sport in New Zealand
3.3 determine records and awards for such competitions
3.4 determine, publish and enforce the rules or National Sporting Code for automobile sport in New Zealand
3.5 be the New Zealand member of the Federation Internationale de l'Automobile ("FIA") and as such, enforce the rules and regulations of FIA in New Zealand.
3.6 provide and market information, advice and resources to its members
3.7 service the needs and requirements of members, supporters and sponsors of Motorsport
3.8 act in good faith and loyalty to ensure the maintenance and enhancement of Motorsport New Zealand and motorsport, its standards, quality and reputation for the collective and mutual benefit of the member clubs and motorsport.
3.9 at all times operate with, and promote, mutual trust and confidence between Motorsport New Zealand and its member clubs in pursuit of these objects.
3.10 at all times to act on behalf of, and in the interests of, the member clubs and motorsport

Maybe 3.7 allows for ownership of specific classes but only if you ignore 3.9 & 3.10

Dont look at Section 4 "Powers" ......wow...

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Stockman

Constitution of Motorsport New Zealand Inc

Objects:

3.7 service the needs and requirements of members, supporters and sponsors of MotorSport


Maybe 3.7 allows for ownership of specific classes but only if you ignore 3.9 & 3.10

Dont look at Section 4 "Powers" ......wow...

The problem they would have with 3.7 is the "Motorsport" has a capital "M" so it is a definition contained in the Constitution. Under Section 1 of the Constitution "MotorSport" is defined as "MotorSport New Zealand Incorporated" which under 5.1 of the Constitution is the member clubs.

So, 3.7 should be read as "... service the needs and requirements of members, supporters and sponsors of the members clubs ...".

Hard to see how paying for the design and jigs of the MRX car is servicing the needs and requirements of the member clubs???

[Southern Man]

It would be nice to see a listing of any former shareholders and office bearers of the company in it's various guises and the dates of their participation so that they could be identified alongside of some of the decisions that have been made.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by RogerH

The problem they would have with 3.7 is the "Motorsport" has a capital "M" so it is a definition contained in the Constitution. Under Section 1 of the Constitution "MotorSport" is defined as "MotorSport New Zealand Incorporated" which under 5.1 of the Constitution is the member clubs.

So, 3.7 should be read as "... service the needs and requirements of members, supporters and sponsors of the members clubs ...".

Hard to see how paying for the design and jigs of the MRX car is servicing the needs and requirements of the member clubs???

so ten points and you only read one off them.

what about "3.2 arrange and control competitions for automobile sport in New Zealand"

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by peckstar

so ten points and you only read one off them.

what about "3.2 arrange and control competitions for automobile sport in New Zealand"

Same problem with 3.2 - the whole MSNZ Constitution is premised on the basis that it is for the benefit of "MotorSport" (which is the member clubs). The question then is : is the substantial $ investment in one class with limited entrants constitutionally beneficial and in the interests of the member clubs that account for probably 99% of the other motor sport activity in NZ?

Additionally, 3.2 with the words "arrange and control competitions" probably refers to all the Manual regulations outside of the National Sporting Code (which is only about 15% of the Manual content and is specifically covered in 3.4).

IMO, its drawing a long bow to interpret the MSNZ constitutional objectives and powers to include the investment in designs and jigs for one particular car.

No doubt the MSNZ annual meeting this year will be very interesting with some hard questions asked. Although not related to NZV8s, the MSNZ 51% owned Rally NZ Limited has evidently lost a few $$.

[peckstar]

i cant see anything there that would not allow it.

But it would need to be backed by some other decision , eg budget approval , committee meeting descions, advice at AGM or similar

[Mr Revhead]

Nothing wrong at all. I suspect RogerH is probably sour as he was on the losing end of some past battle and now thinks MSNZ is the devil.

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

Nothing wrong at all. I suspect RogerH is probably sour as he was on the losing end of some past battle and now thinks MSNZ is the devil.

Unfortunately you have suspected wrong.

I actually think MSNZ does a lot of things right and gets some unwarranted criticism. However, with respect to taking a direct commercial interest in motor sport I think they have got it very wrong and it is likely to detrimentally impact on motor sport competitors.

[Mr Revhead]

Would you rather they didn't so promoters get in and suck all the profits for themselves? Leading to increased fees and costs to competitors?

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

Would you rather they didn't so promoters get in and suck all the profits for themselves? Leading to increased fees and costs to competitors?

TMC which runs Tier 1 and which is 60% owned by MSNZ has a specific clause that prohibits MSNZ from receiving any profit or dividend - so for all the financial risk that MSNZ has exposed themselves to (and exposed MSNZ members to) it cannot get any profits - it is all downside. The fees which MSNZ gets from Tier 1 events would predominantly be paid in any event, irrespective if TMC or an non-MSNZ related promoter ran the event.

The money that MSNZ has given to TMC (over $1 million) plus the recent money paid out for the MRX design and jigs has (and will) result in increased fees to clubs and competitors as MSNZ has a cost plus method of budgeting.

When you get a situation where the fees (including participation levies per entrant) paid to MSNZ by a member club putting on a one day event exceed the track hire fee then something is wrong.

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by RogerH

When you get a situation where the fees (including participation levies per entrant) paid to MSNZ by a member club putting on a one day event exceed the track hire fee then something is wrong.

not necessarily. if the event is well run and has a heap of entrants, then the levies (at current rates) could easily exceed the track hire depending on the grade of event. unlikely if clubsport basic but quite possibly done for more advanced events

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by smokin'joe

not necessarily. if the event is well run and has a heap of entrants, then the levies (at current rates) could easily exceed the track hire depending on the grade of event. unlikely if clubsport basic but quite possibly done for more advanced events

What I was trying to get at was a value for money issue. If you pay say, $2500 for track hire you get something tangible - the use of the track facility. If for the same event you pay say, $3000 to MSNZ (which the entrants effectively pay) what do you get for your money?

My point is that the fees paid to MSNZ is essentially a tax to fund the costs of running MSNZ. It is not related to the actual cost of the tangible "benefit" MSNZ contributes to the running of the meeting.

If we take the point that running TMC/Tier 1 costs MSNZ money, then the fees that need to be recovered through the likes of event participation levies are inflated and that hits competitors in the pocket to a greater extent than if MSNZ was not involved in TMC.

[Stockman]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but from what I am aware NZV8's don't pay any entry fee's for T1 meetings, if this is the case why are the other fields subsidising this class.

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by RogerH

What I was trying to get at was a value for money issue. If you pay say, $2500 for track hire you get something tangible - the use of the track facility. If for the same event you pay say, $3000 to MSNZ (which the entrants effectively pay) what do you get for your money?

a certain amount of indemnity from prosecution should the **** hit the fan for competitors/marshalls/officials

Originally Posted by RogerH

My point is that the fees paid to MSNZ is essentially a tax to fund the costs of running MSNZ. It is not related to the actual cost of the tangible "benefit" MSNZ contributes to the running of the meeting.

and what do we get for RUC on light diesil vehicles ??? still a participation levy, isn't it?

Originally Posted by RogerH

If we take the point that running TMC/Tier 1 costs MSNZ money, then the fees that need to be recovered through the likes of event participation levies are inflated and that hits competitors in the pocket to a greater extent than if MSNZ was not involved in TMC.

......... and if it was run by a fully independant promotions company..........entry fees and gate entry would rise to cover advertising, salaries insurance etc for the promotion company, wouldn't it.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by smokin'joe

a certain amount of indemnity from prosecution should the **** hit the fan for competitors/marshalls/officials

and what do we get for RUC on light diesil vehicles ??? still a participation levy, isn't it?

......... and if it was run by a fully independant promotions company..........entry fees and gate entry would rise to cover advertising, salaries insurance etc for the promotion company, wouldn't it.

Well a case in point is the V8ST's - I don't see it happening there and there are plenty of other events like the NZFMR where it doesn't either.

You implied that TMC events were well run with a heap of entrants - well they don't have a heap of entrants compared to the club events and they're not well marketed either, so where exactly is the win? Do you think Kerry Cooper and his cronies work for free?

I am told (and this is only hearsay) that some years back his wife was paid around $20k to run the new NZV8's website, when the existing one run by PMS was actually a lot better and only cost them a fraction of that...

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

You implied that TMC events were well run with a heap of entrants - well they don't have a heap of entrants compared to the club events and they're not well marketed either, so where exactly is the win? Do you think Kerry Cooper and his cronies work for free?

i hope i didn't imply that at all, couldn't be further from the truth. merely explaing why there are levies.

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

You implied that TMC events were well run with a heap of entrants - well they don't have a heap of entrants compared to the club events and they're not well marketed either, so where exactly is the win? Do you think Kerry Cooper and his cronies work for free?

I am told (and this is only hearsay) that some years back his wife was paid around $20k to run the new NZV8's website, when the existing one run by PMS was actually a lot better and only cost them a fraction of that...

Then there's the caterers who were (are?) contracted to TMC for the Tier1 events - a crowd from Otaki called The Ultimate Venue - same town Kerry Cooper comes from - probably just a coincidence. Looks like TMC bought a mobile coffee cafe for over $70k so their caterer could have a cafe to operate from. Then the caterer was a bit short of the readies so TMC lend them around $30k ............

[on_to_it]

I have been told by a well connected person involved in Tier One that Mr C personally has a financial interest in every aspect of the catering pie (excuse the pun). Someone mentioned earlier that an investigative journalist should be asked to have a very close look at this little empire.

I would suggest that MSNZ be pressed to demand, on behalf of its members, a full audit of TMC's books. In this day and age, given MSNZ majority shareholding in TMC, the whole operation should be (sorry, I usually hate corporate-speak) TRANSPARENT.

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by on_to_it

I have been told by a well connected person involved in Tier One that Mr C personally has a financial interest in every aspect of the catering pie (excuse the pun). Someone mentioned earlier that an investigative journalist should be asked to have a very close look at this little empire.

I would suggest that MSNZ be pressed to demand, on behalf of its members, a full audit of TMC's books. In this day and age, given MSNZ majority shareholding in TMC, the whole operation should be (sorry, I usually hate corporate-speak) TRANSPARENT.

Interesting. I have asked on more than one occasion how much Mr C and also the Mr S (sponsorship man) earn from TMC. MSNZ told me that Mr C had refused to divulge this information to them - even though they own 60% of TMC!!

MSNZ has also advised me that Mr C has told them in writing that there are no contractual or other relationships between directors of TMC and other parties connected with TMC ............

All of this would be fine if TMC was not majority owned by MSNZ member clubs and relied on MSNZ member clubs handouts. If TMC was completely independent they could do what they liked.

The alleged rot that sits inside TMC, from what I have heard, was a factor in the dissatisfaction that lead to the NZV8 split and the current situation with Tier 1 being a bit of an embarrassment (apart from TRS).