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Old 20 Jan 2017, 12:44 (Ref:3703797)   #51
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Originally Posted by anthony81901 View Post
Brock obviously retained a direct relationship with Holden through the HDT road car business, and by the Group A era and the ETCC campaign in 1986, it appeared that Holden were again contributing directly.
A read of "The Rise and Fall" and the result of "Director-gate" on the race team showed that there was a fair bit of GM-H $ going into the race team.
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Old 20 Jan 2017, 13:25 (Ref:3703812)   #52
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with all this culling, I wonder if Mr Warbuton needs to head to England and have a chat with Mr Gow.

Seems BTCC s runing strong
It is, but it's terrible. Dodgem racing, crash and bash, horrible cars. Motorsport for the X-Factor generation. Don't do it.
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Old 20 Jan 2017, 14:19 (Ref:3703826)   #53
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Perhaps that's kinda what we need over here?

The catagory seems to stagnate 5 years or so, hence wholsale changes to formats, car specs, new tracks... I guess it gives the die-hard long-term fans something to cheer/complain about, but the core of it is largely the same. Former drivers and experts calling for harder racing, a degree of biffo, yet the catagory wants to stamp it out.

I really can't see it appealing to any new fans of the younger generations. Cars won't exactly resonate with them, the racing can be drawn-out, rules are changed on the fly, inconsistant rulings for infringements...

The Gen2 regulations might be another 5-year stop-gap measure, but with manufacturers tripping over eachother trying to leave, 1 or 2 teams year-on-year, looking ever-doubtful of turning up to Clipsal, at some point, someone has to say "enough is enough. We need to re-think what we're doing".

I read that Supercars may have bought the rights to TCR here in Aus. Is that the answer? Perhaps the concept of big rear-wheel drive V8s will be forgotten about in a few years? The homologated list of cars will be relevent to what we have on our roads, and desirable to younger generations of fans.
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Old 20 Jan 2017, 14:24 (Ref:3703829)   #54
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Phil Rothfield & James Phelps of the Daily Telegraph seemed to know something was up in last Sunday's 'The Buzz'



I read it in last Sunday's paper & wondered who it was they were talking about.. I guess we now know..
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Old 20 Jan 2017, 21:20 (Ref:3703923)   #55
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chavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Of course Holden did support HDT despite their much published withdrawal on 1979.

Holden agreed to warranty the HDT Commodores through their normal warranty process. These cars were used for homologation of the SS Commodore race cars.

Yet another example of manufacturer support.
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Old 20 Jan 2017, 21:59 (Ref:3703928)   #56
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Of course Holden did support HDT despite their much published withdrawal on 1979.

Holden agreed to warranty the HDT Commodores through their normal warranty process. These cars were used for homologation of the SS Commodore race cars.

Yet another example of manufacturer support.
OMG can you smell that chavez.. that is the smell of desperateness.

And calling holden a liar as well. Nicely played
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Old 20 Jan 2017, 22:14 (Ref:3703930)   #57
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Yep. From you.

Dig up.
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Old 20 Jan 2017, 22:42 (Ref:3703935)   #58
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chavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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OMG can you smell that chavez.. that is the smell of desperateness.

And calling holden a liar as well. Nicely played
Take a moment to think about that.

GMH was willing to provide warranty coverage for modified vehicles outside of their normal assembly process to provide a revenue for HDT and for homolgation.

Arguably a bigger commitment than simply writing a cheque.

Not desperate just able to understand support can take on many different forms.
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Old 21 Jan 2017, 00:30 (Ref:3703953)   #59
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And calling holden a liar as well. Nicely played
Have you even read up on the formation of the HDT in 1969 and the reasons for it being called the "Holden Dealer Team"?
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Old 21 Jan 2017, 00:42 (Ref:3703956)   #60
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Have you even read up on the formation of the HDT in 1969 and the reasons for it being called the "Holden Dealer Team"?
wow! great! thats so amazing. No relevance what so ever, but fantastic
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Old 21 Jan 2017, 00:44 (Ref:3703957)   #61
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Take a moment to think about that.

GMH was willing to provide warranty coverage for modified vehicles outside of their normal assembly process to provide a revenue for HDT and for homolgation.

Arguably a bigger commitment than simply writing a cheque.

Not desperate just able to understand support can take on many different forms.
dude Ford are providing warranty for the Tickford Ranger, but that doesnt make PRA Ford supported, its very clear, just like it was in 1981 with Holden. Stop being desperate.
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Old 21 Jan 2017, 01:32 (Ref:3703966)   #62
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dude Ford are providing warranty for the Tickford Ranger, but that doesnt make PRA Ford supported, its very clear, just like it was in 1981 with Holden. Stop being desperate.
GMH supported the business model that enabled HDT to exist. And allowed for homologation of the racing Commodores post VB.

The Tickford Ranger example is nonsense.

Enough said on the topic. Maybe GTR can tell us when there wasn't manufacturer support.
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Old 21 Jan 2017, 01:55 (Ref:3703975)   #63
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wow! great! thats so amazing. No relevance what so ever, but fantastic
Plenty of relevance when you put it in the context of you making a comment about a member "calling Holden a liar"
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Old 21 Jan 2017, 02:12 (Ref:3703987)   #64
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Plenty of relevance when you put it in the context of you making a comment about a member "calling Holden a liar"
None at all. absolutely zero, nil nada zilch

like chavez said "Enough said on the topic. Maybe GTR can tell us when there wasn't manufacturer support."
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Old 21 Jan 2017, 07:56 (Ref:3704008)   #65
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Holden has been in whatever the premier series of the day has been, for decades.
That may have shown up as dealer teams or ad agencies funding programs alongside supplier or other sponsors as well. Take a look at how many Bathurst previews were funded by Marlboro, real high production value ones showing off cars & sponsors & drivers...

The real difference is that Holden hasn't always spread support to every team in the series at the same level.

For example, Roadways had 'friends' inside Holden's engineering departments who helped with development bits and pieces, but it wasn't like Holden wrote that squad a cheque to cover the operating budget, despite supplying much of the field of privateers for a lot of years in Group C and Group A, and winning Bathurst in 1986. Holden already had a works team in the HDT, so it wasnt needed at the time to fund another. Makes sense. Perkins was likely a similar deal.

Then come 1987, and HDT is no longer the works squad, Holden creates Holden Motor Sport, to share technical stuff, go support teams, to supply parts & equipment (at some sort of cost) to teams wanting to run Holden product.

Even though Holden secured TWR as the works Holden team , Holden Motorsport still existed (until recently) to supply support whether it be financial sponsorship, technical assistance, parts supply, media and/or marketing support, loan cars/drive cars/show cars... And this stuff can clearly add up to a considerable amount of cost for Holden.

The fun part is that Holden Motor Sport was originally created out of the engineering teams at Holden, Mr Lindell, Mr Borrett and others, whose day jobs included working on product made in Fisherman's Bend or Adelaide. Mr McNamara followed on from that great work, plugging into the Holden & GM systems to create & maintain support for the motor racing programs on an ongoing, long term basis.

Fact is though, there is no car making here any more.

2017 may see the last of Australian assembled shapes racing in the premier class in this country. And the budgets and engineering capabilities of an official motorsports arm are now very different to a few short years ago, when the car maker knew more about their cars and how to satisfy all the needs of the company than the race teams.

In a way, 888 has smashed that idea.. they have the engineering wherewithal to make anything quick, and the budget to put the right people in the pit garages & behind the wheel to get it winning & keep it winning.

So Holden signs a contract with 888 to develop the 2018 Next Gen Commodore. Makes sense given every car in the field, regardless of brand, has 888 IP inside it

And there is now one team focus, not two. And a centralised engine supply model rather than letting all the teams compete for power, spending development dollars individually to travel the same ground.

In some ways, the 888 deal did Mr McNamara & Mr Harker & Mr McDornan & others at Holden Motor Sport out of a gig. For the good of the brand, to maximize the performance, to harness the spend, to be effective.

And the team they chose just keeps on winning.. and selling new & old cars to customers in the main game & Dunlop series fields.

You can't help but think though that even though Holden Motor Sport may not exist in its previously known forms, that there may not be roles in the Holden universe for them, plugged into product planning & commercial leverage of success.

We shall see what shows up next...
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Old 21 Jan 2017, 10:46 (Ref:3704033)   #66
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In the absence of an official announcement from Holden, there is a strong rumour (which may or may not be true) doing the rounds that Mr. McNamara's dismissal is allegedly about an issue between him and the company, not about shutting down Holden Motorsport. Also part of the strong rumour is that he is allegedly joining 888.

Mr. Harker ceased to be a Holden employee a while ago and was brought back on contract to Holden Motorsport. Don't know whether his contract is up, to be extended etc.

All conjecture in regard to what this may mean for the future at this stage - allegedly.
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Old 21 Jan 2017, 23:04 (Ref:3704133)   #67
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Plenty of relevance when you put it in the context of you making a comment about a member "calling Holden a liar"
That's okay. With all of the articles and books written about Holden's back door support I am probably in good company.
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Old 21 Jan 2017, 23:08 (Ref:3704136)   #68
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None at all. absolutely zero, nil nada zilch

like chavez said "Enough said on the topic. Maybe GTR can tell us when there wasn't manufacturer support."
Great post GTR.

Of course I never got to play my trump card.

The 1981 ATCC and Bathurst winning car was of course built from a shell supplied by Ford Motor Company to DJR for no cost with part of the construction costs covered by Ford.

Manufacturer support has always been there. Just in different forms.
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Old 21 Jan 2017, 23:45 (Ref:3704145)   #69
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With the loss of long time commercial director Peter Jamieson, will Mr McNamara's expertise fill this void perfectly at the T8RE family?
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Old 22 Jan 2017, 17:08 (Ref:3704253)   #70
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In the absence of an official announcement from Holden, there is a strong rumour (which may or may not be true) doing the rounds that Mr. McNamara's dismissal is allegedly about an issue between him and the company, not about shutting down Holden Motorsport. Also part of the strong rumour is that he is allegedly joining 888.

Mr. Harker ceased to be a Holden employee a while ago and was brought back on contract to Holden Motorsport. Don't know whether his contract is up, to be extended etc.

All conjecture in regard to what this may mean for the future at this stage - allegedly.
Always rumours of impropriety when people leave. Often wrong always damaging ..... enough said mediators?
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Old 22 Jan 2017, 22:35 (Ref:3704319)   #71
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With the loss of long time commercial director Peter Jamieson, will Mr McNamara's expertise fill this void perfectly at the T8RE family?
A more than suitable replacement, if it ends up that way of course, with the almost unmatchable advantage of long time intimate knowledge of GM/Holden's systems, processes, people & other valuable stuff..
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Old 23 Jan 2017, 00:59 (Ref:3704355)   #72
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Umai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridUmai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Holden has been in whatever the premier series of the day has been, for decades.
That may have shown up as dealer teams or ad agencies funding programs alongside supplier or other sponsors as well. Take a look at how many Bathurst previews were funded by Marlboro, real high production value ones showing off cars & sponsors & drivers...

The real difference is that Holden hasn't always spread support to every team in the series at the same level.

For example, Roadways had 'friends' inside Holden's engineering departments who helped with development bits and pieces, but it wasn't like Holden wrote that squad a cheque to cover the operating budget, despite supplying much of the field of privateers for a lot of years in Group C and Group A, and winning Bathurst in 1986. Holden already had a works team in the HDT, so it wasnt needed at the time to fund another. Makes sense. Perkins was likely a similar deal.

Then come 1987, and HDT is no longer the works squad, Holden creates Holden Motor Sport, to share technical stuff, go support teams, to supply parts & equipment (at some sort of cost) to teams wanting to run Holden product.

Even though Holden secured TWR as the works Holden team , Holden Motorsport still existed (until recently) to supply support whether it be financial sponsorship, technical assistance, parts supply, media and/or marketing support, loan cars/drive cars/show cars... And this stuff can clearly add up to a considerable amount of cost for Holden.

The fun part is that Holden Motor Sport was originally created out of the engineering teams at Holden, Mr Lindell, Mr Borrett and others, whose day jobs included working on product made in Fisherman's Bend or Adelaide. Mr McNamara followed on from that great work, plugging into the Holden & GM systems to create & maintain support for the motor racing programs on an ongoing, long term basis.

Fact is though, there is no car making here any more.

2017 may see the last of Australian assembled shapes racing in the premier class in this country. And the budgets and engineering capabilities of an official motorsports arm are now very different to a few short years ago, when the car maker knew more about their cars and how to satisfy all the needs of the company than the race teams.

In a way, 888 has smashed that idea.. they have the engineering wherewithal to make anything quick, and the budget to put the right people in the pit garages & behind the wheel to get it winning & keep it winning.

So Holden signs a contract with 888 to develop the 2018 Next Gen Commodore. Makes sense given every car in the field, regardless of brand, has 888 IP inside it

And there is now one team focus, not two. And a centralised engine supply model rather than letting all the teams compete for power, spending development dollars individually to travel the same ground.

In some ways, the 888 deal did Mr McNamara & Mr Harker & Mr McDornan & others at Holden Motor Sport out of a gig. For the good of the brand, to maximize the performance, to harness the spend, to be effective.

And the team they chose just keeps on winning.. and selling new & old cars to customers in the main game & Dunlop series fields.

You can't help but think though that even though Holden Motor Sport may not exist in its previously known forms, that there may not be roles in the Holden universe for them, plugged into product planning & commercial leverage of success.

We shall see what shows up next...
Thanks for further clarification, GTR.
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Old 23 Jan 2017, 01:48 (Ref:3704364)   #73
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The question I might ask is whether Simon Mc completed the deal with 888, and then accepted a job there - which I would suggest is improper - clear conflict of interest.

If he was let go by Holden, and nothing in his contract stopped him from going to 888, well and good then.

McDornan will not be done out of a job, he manages all of Holden's social media, not just HMS.
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Old 23 Jan 2017, 02:12 (Ref:3704370)   #74
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Seems as though Holden are bringing there Motorsport arm indoors so they can produce parts overseas to cut costs and hand all design factors of the gen 2 commodore over to 888 I doubt this is a sign of holden's withdrawal there just redesigning there Motorsport program this could have big time effects for the little teams like LDM and Erebus as 888 may not be able to supply the demand from these teams and Holden Motorsport isn't officially closed yet and the departures aren't confirmed should make for interesting times ahead

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Old 23 Jan 2017, 04:00 (Ref:3704381)   #75
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With the loss of long time commercial director Peter Jamieson, will Mr McNamara's expertise fill this void perfectly at the T8RE family?
Where has PJ gone??
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