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Old 7 Jan 2012, 09:58 (Ref:3008544)   #76
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Originally Posted by peckstar View Post
why would people go to it, what is off interest, how do we relate, how do we get passionate? Why would we be even interested
The question at present is why are they not going to V8SC, why are they not passionate about it to the same degree. When people start telling you that they go for the Utes or the Touring Car Masters or just an opportunity to drink some stubbies with their mates there needs to be some thought about the product.
And Jamie Winchup might be a nice guy and all that but he has had a charisima by-pass.
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 09:58 (Ref:3008545)   #77
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yes Ross Palmer marketed that, it didnt really work then, nothing has changed
I'm not familiar with Ross Palmer or what was done previously, but put someone like Cochrane (yes hate him all you want) behind it and I reckon it'd be a winner.

As it is I can only see COTF dying an ugly death over the coming years. Seriously even the die hard Holden/Ford fans are going to get bored pretty quick with all cars the same just different stickers, and Hyundais
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 09:58 (Ref:3008546)   #78
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For the die hard Ford/Holden fans - a Monaro & equivalent Ford taking it to the European exotics.
For the die hard Ford/Holden fans - Chevs & US Fords.
For the car enthusiasts - lots of exotic machinery.
For the dreamers - lots of exotic machinery.
For the rich side of town - Ferraris, Lamborghinis, etc.
For everyone else - variety!

Do it right and there'd be something for just about any car/motorsport enthusiast.
a monaro, what is that, who makes one of them, your series sounds really expensive, how will you fund it?

people can already see those cars, they're not really interested
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 10:02 (Ref:3008549)   #79
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a monaro, what is that, who makes one of them
rebadge the Camaro with some aussie style!


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your series sounds really expensive, how will you fund it?
And V8 Supercars isn't? At least they would be based on actual factory cars.

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people can already see those cars, there not really interested
Like I said, needs to packaged and marketed correctly, without all the infighting & politics that has plagued Aus GT for years.
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 10:05 (Ref:3008554)   #80
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The question at present is why are they not going to V8SC, why are they not passionate about it to the same degree. When people start telling you that they go for the Utes or the Touring Car Masters or just an opportunity to drink some stubbies with their mates there needs to be some thought about the product.
And Jamie Winchup might be a nice guy and all that but he has had a charisima by-pass.
people still go, over a million attendees at v8 races last years, that should hardly be sneezed at.

and between half and 1.5 million people watch every round
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 10:11 (Ref:3008556)   #81
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rebadge the Camaro with some aussie style!




And V8 Supercars isn't? At least they would be based on actual factory cars.



Like I said, needs to packaged and marketed correctly, without all the infighting & politics that has plagued Aus GT for years.
i think its a bit off track, but you and bluesport can enhoy killing the series together

as for politics, yeah right, as if that would happen
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 10:13 (Ref:3008557)   #82
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i think its a bit off track, but you and bluesport can enhoy killing the series together
Ah but what a series it would be
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 10:18 (Ref:3008561)   #83
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peckstar has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
oh by the way Ross Palmer was the patron of the GT nations cup and Bathurst 24 hour race back in the early noughties, it had those cars you mentioned (even a monaro) it had its own support series, but it didnt draw crowds, lacked tv coverage and ran out of money
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 10:23 (Ref:3008563)   #84
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Ah but would he;

Lets say rather than just running GT as the premier category, it was modified for the Aussie audience. Make it a category requirement that there are at least a couple of Corvettes, a couple of Camaro's, a couple of Mustangs and a couple of GT40's. Also bring back the Monaro & someone shove a stick up Ford Aust to bring out an equivalent GT spec muscle car.

Now you have Ferrari, Lamborghini, Audi, Mercedes, Chev, Ford, Holden, Lotus, Nissan GTR, etc; **** I reckon the worst marketer in the world could market that!
Now you're talkin'.......well done!!!
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 10:23 (Ref:3008564)   #85
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But ff1champ, motor racing has in the past attracted much larger crowds as a percentage of population.
Here in Queensland both Lakeside and SPIR have been packed for both Tasman and ATCC rounds. Kieth Williams used to claim 60,000 at SPIR in those days and there were a couple of meetings when I was there when it certainly looked about the number. The one race ATCC at Lakeside that Pete G won in the Cortina was packed like sardines.
Nowadays it seems to take counting the crowd over three days, a gratis rock concert and spending a lot of government money to get the Indy crowds above the one day crowd numbers of the past, and that is drawing from more than double the population base.
I still say it is the core product that is going stale.
P.S Does Muscle car Masters still draw the massive turnout at EC?
I can't speak for what it was like in the 60's in QLD ( I'm a Victorian, can only speak of since the late '80s), give me some time to think about it.
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 10:24 (Ref:3008565)   #86
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oh by the way Ross Palmer was the patron of the GT nations cup and Bathurst 24 hour race back in the early noughties, it had those cars you mentioned (even a monaro) it had its own support series, but it didnt draw crowds, lacked tv coverage and ran out of money
Yep, like I said needs to be packaged and marketed correctly.

You can't tell me that the average aussie motorsport fan that currently follows the V8s didn't start to get a little excited at the prospect of Brocky in his 427 Monaro taking it to the Europeans... Problem was the whole episode was handled poorly and missed the potential of what could have been...
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 10:46 (Ref:3008571)   #87
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Of course back in the Bathurst 24hr days there was a certain V8 SuperCars category to compete with that was growing in strength year on year.

COTF is just around the corner which could introduce a decline in this categorie, so the timing is now perfect to look at building something else.

I reckon if you surveyed the aussie motorsport / car enthusiast demographic and asked the question;

What would you rather see;
1. Holden/Ford and maybe a couple of other brands such as Hyundai, etc all running mostly identical spec built cars that have very little in common with any car you can buy on the street.

or

2. True Holden/Ford/Chev GT spec muscle cars mixing it with Ferrari, Audi, Lamborghini, Lotus, Nissan, etc GT spec supercars that can be bought and driven on the street.

I reckon you'd get an overwhelming majority choosing option 2.

Plus, you could then look at incorporating this into a true International series, imagine Bathurst as a round of the FIA GT Championship!
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 20:58 (Ref:3008700)   #88
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On reflection this is an interesting discussion, but we are never going to see that sort of change of machinery within the existing structure.
The REC system which limits who can compete in V8SC is the base of its financial stability giving a business model for team owners. That is both an advantage to the teams and the series owners, and a limitation on the series ability to adapt to changing fan demands. If you are a franchisee you are limited by the terms of that franchise as to what you can present as product. V8SC is a very tightly controlled franchised product.
Pecky is right in one comment, getting the sort of change suggested here would destroy the current closed shop industry.
In fact the most likely way of achieving a change that gives the punters something they want is financial failiure of the current series. There are a number of potential scenarios that could bring that about:

1: What this thread started as, an ICAC or similar enquiry bringing the series business model into disrepute changing the negotiating abilty of the series with governments to get access to Homebush, Surfers, Clipsal, street circuits and subsidisation of events in Townsville, WA, NT, and NZ.

2: A significant drop in TV ratings and/or financial problems for the FTA TV industry leading to failiure to negotiate a favourable TV deal. At present 7 is the only reasonably profitable network so they are unlikely to be pushed upwards when bidding by the competition. The existing business model seems dependent on significant growth of TV fees,

3: An implosion of the finances caused by losses on Overseas ventures and losses on being a promoter for Homebush and Surfers et al.

4. Disputes and disagreements among the REC holders, either internal or related to drop in income caused by one of the above.

One presumes all of this is not likely to happen quickly, Archer having apparently done due dilligence on the business recently.
But maybe a smart businessman could see a possibility in developing an alternative series to take over top billing if or when it did happen.
Another Tony?
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 21:53 (Ref:3008724)   #89
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Another Tony?
Are you hinting at an older, wiser Tony

Doesn't matter what sport it is, Sydney crowds are notoriously fickle

Look at the turnout for the No 1 sport in NSW, Rugby League

They are just conditioned to sit at home and watch it from their comfy chair on their 50" plasma
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 22:07 (Ref:3008729)   #90
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To what degree do fans follow Holden/Ford rather than Whincup, Winterbottom, Tander, Giz .. if these guys were doing the B12 would it make any difference to the interest of the motor sport fan?

Bluesport says:
.........complete lack of vision from those controlling motorsport in OZ
Precisely who are you talking about & what does your vision envisage in the commercial reality of Aus motor sport?
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 22:30 (Ref:3008735)   #91
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Are you hinting at an older, wiser Tony
One with a touch of Scots canniness.
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 23:02 (Ref:3008745)   #92
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Yep I agree it would be difficult to get something like this up and running while V8 Supercars is strong, and it would take someone like Cochrane to pull it off. And I think you'd have a hard time doing it if Cochrane was still with V8SC.

Thing is too there is very little marketing of any motorsport events other than V8 Supercars. ARDC have been doing a bit of marketing of Muscle Car Masters over the last few years and you'd have to say they've had relatively (to the level of marketing) success with this.

If Aus GT, or even the Bathurst 12hr, were to invest in some smart marketing I'm sure they'd get a few more to their events also.
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Old 8 Jan 2012, 06:01 (Ref:3008847)   #93
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But ff1champ, motor racing has in the past attracted much larger crowds as a percentage of population.
Here in Queensland both Lakeside and SPIR have been packed for both Tasman and ATCC rounds. Kieth Williams used to claim 60,000 at SPIR in those days and there were a couple of meetings when I was there when it certainly looked about the number. The one race ATCC at Lakeside that Pete G won in the Cortina was packed like sardines.
Nowadays it seems to take counting the crowd over three days, a gratis rock concert and spending a lot of government money to get the Indy crowds above the one day crowd numbers of the past, and that is drawing from more than double the population base.
I still say it is the core product that is going stale.
P.S Does Muscle car Masters still draw the massive turnout at EC?
Muscle car Masters? I don't know. Anyway, while watching the NFL play-offs, I did take some time to think about possible factors regarding crowds and a response to this post. I only have possible factors, since I wasn't around if don't know for certain, but you can confirm this. But before I do, you state "I still say it is the core product that is going stale." What is the core product? What is going stale?

As far as the crowd figures in QLD, back then, are concerned. Did marketing play a huge part in those figures occurring? With SP, did the fact it was an event within the town, a place to go to, contribute? I can imagine, a one-off ATCC was a big event those days and, as opposed to being just a part of a series, being the host track/town/city would've been big news within the city/town. So, the fact it was genuinely a huge event, as opposed to a "fake" big event like the Adelaide/Sydney/GC race, I suspect, could've made a difference. Had a one-off ATCC continued til now, with a rotation of host track, at an accepted and well known time of the year, I suspect, the noise created about it would trump any current V8SC race atm (Bathurst excluded), it'd be like a mini GP. Now, that's what I'm imagining, you might tell me something different.

I'd also say, the emotional attachment the community has with the event contributes to it's success. Compare the Adelaide and Sydney 500's for instance. The people of Adelaide are happy to have the event there, it's creates a buzz of an event happening, it's something happening that interstaters can come and see, it's something to get excited about fills the void of not hosting the GP. With Sydney, there's no attachment there, it doesn't do anything for Sydney "It promotes the Olympic precinct"...Pfft! Are you freakin kidding? (rhetorical question). Sydney has all the unpopularity the GP has in Melbourne without the benefit of a GP being there. That's all I got atm.
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Old 8 Jan 2012, 07:23 (Ref:3008864)   #94
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In 1964 for the Lakeside ATCC I don't know if the word marketing had even been invented.
Of course one reason for the big crowds was no TV. If you wanted to see the race you had to be there and unless there was a crash you wouldnt get more than a 30sec newsclip on TV that night.
Motor racing coverage was almost non existant outside the specialist magazines. Newspaper sports journalists didn't consider that motor racing was a sport. Promotion of the event was through those magazines, by sponsors, particularly oil companies, advertising that their teams would be there and by posters and flyers around service stations.
Some radio stations did lead up interviews etc but almost no TV news coverage and probably a bit of a write up in the local papers on the day before or the morning of the event.
Touring car racing was in a huge growth spurt at the time and this was I think the last time the title was decided at a single event. From then on it was a series, and started to get more publicity. I think the turn out that day surprised everyone, and certainly was way beyond the capability of the facilities.
What you say about it being a local feature event was probably a factor. Lakeside had attracted big crowds for Tasman series events as it was the only opportunity to see the Grand Prix stars each year, but that was a crowd who were motor sport fans. The ATCC seemed to be the breakthrough to a much larger group of people. And being a one off it probably attracted people from much further afield. I drove up from Tamworth for it.
Surfers was well promoted by the standards of the day. Kieth new his business. Being on the Gold Coast a lot of people would time a holiday break to be here for an ATCC or Tasman round. Brisbane was very much in the cachement area and the local media on the Coast were right behind publicising events. Early on of course there was no TV, later TV but not live, usually edited highlights late at night.
At that stage people like Brock, Moffat, Johnson etc were becoming superstars among a car mad youth group. Remember the motor car was a much bigger status symbol, an extension of personality and demonstration of individuality than it is now.
I think the difference in raceday attendance can mainly be put down to the fact that there was no live TV, but given the growth in population and the very significant levels of spending on promotion, the cross promotion on TV and the provision of support entertainment, I am surprised attendances are not greater.
My mention of the core product is the V8SC racing itself. It is close, plenty of contact etc but it is developing an air of "sameness" at an alarming rate. Other than the paint jobs the cars all look the same, sound the same and in general perform the same. Parity has succeeded and turned round to bite its protaganists in the bum.
The current group of top drivers, with the possible exceptions of Lowndes and Ingall, are bland and to top it off many people are starting to get a bit fed up with seeing taxpayer money dealt out in not very transparent deals.
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Old 9 Jan 2012, 02:06 (Ref:3009223)   #95
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With all this talk about crowd numbers in the past this clip from Sandown is probably worth a close look at.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbc5U6wTfUw

Being back in 1978 that meant the public had access to the infield areas of th circuit as you can see in the background in the footage of the cars travelling up the back straight and look at how many people and cars you can see over Rothmans Rise and out of Dandy Rd.

This meeting not only featured Brabham, Moss & Fangio but also the Australian Grand Prix (F5000's) and Hang Ten 400 (Touring Cars) as well as me as a spectator.
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Old 9 Jan 2012, 05:41 (Ref:3009239)   #96
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In 1964 for the Lakeside ATCC I don't know if the word marketing had even been invented.
Of course one reason for the big crowds was no TV. If you wanted to see the race you had to be there and unless there was a crash you wouldnt get more than a 30sec newsclip on TV that night.
Less TV/promotion = Bigger crowds? Interesting.

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Motor racing coverage was almost non existant outside the specialist magazines. Newspaper sports journalists didn't consider that motor racing was a sport. Promotion of the event was through those magazines, by sponsors, particularly oil companies, advertising that their teams would be there and by posters and flyers around service stations.
Some radio stations did lead up interviews etc but almost no TV news coverage and probably a bit of a write up in the local papers on the day before or the morning of the event.
Who would've thought, promoting an event through specialist press, to people who actually like the sport, as opposed to begging/expecting a % of people who don't like racing, would work?

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Touring car racing was in a huge growth spurt at the time and this was I think the last time the title was decided at a single event. From then on it was a series, and started to get more publicity. I think the turn out that day surprised everyone, and certainly was way beyond the capability of the facilities.
I think the "less is more" phrase applies to current day Australian motorsport. Back in those days, even when it turned into a series, It was only about 6 rounds or so. Adelaide, Townsville, Sydney, wherever street race/rock concert. Same poo, different town.

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What you say about it being a local feature event was probably a factor. Lakeside had attracted big crowds for Tasman series events as it was the only opportunity to see the Grand Prix stars each year, but that was a crowd who were motor sport fans. The ATCC seemed to be the breakthrough to a much larger group of people. And being a one off it probably attracted people from much further afield. I drove up from Tamworth for it.
Surfers was well promoted by the standards of the day. Kieth new his business. Being on the Gold Coast a lot of people would time a holiday break to be here for an ATCC or Tasman round. Brisbane was very much in the cachement area and the local media on the Coast were right behind publicising events. Early on of course there was no TV, later TV but not live, usually edited highlights late at night.
At that stage people like Brock, Moffat, Johnson etc were becoming superstars among a car mad youth group. Remember the motor car was a much bigger status symbol, an extension of personality and demonstration of individuality than it is now.
You mean, in those days, people had an attachment to cars, as opposed to being entertained? Radical thinking right there, me thinks

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I think the difference in raceday attendance can mainly be put down to the fact that there was no live TV,
Less TV/promotion = Bigger crowds? There is a theme developing here.

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but given the growth in population and the very significant levels of spending on promotion, the cross promotion on TV and the provision of support entertainment, I am surprised attendances are not greater.
Based on previous quotes does that mean, More TV/promotion = Less crowds? This notion would be confronting to a number of people responsible/involved in such matters.

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My mention of the core product is the V8SC racing itself. It is close, plenty of contact etc but it is developing an air of "sameness" at an alarming rate. Other than the paint jobs the cars all look the same, sound the same and in general perform the same. Parity has succeeded and turned round to bite its protaganists in the bum.
Interesting, I would've thought the core product was a concert, buying a ticket for the last 20 laps and watching half the race being led by the safety car. I would say, even with the paint jobs, the cars look the same! Back in the days of Formula Sierra, it was much easier to distinguish who was who.

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The current group of top drivers, with the possible exceptions of Lowndes and Ingall, are bland and to top it off many people are starting to get a bit fed up with seeing taxpayer money dealt out in not very transparent deals.
Not sure if I agree with you about the drivers personality part. I reckon Craig talks the corporate line as much as anyone, he just does it with a smile! Ingall? Someone should've puched his head in a long time ago! As far as the bolded is concerned, it's people, who don't have a passion for motorsport, are getting involved in motorsport and making it look bad! Bloody hell this was a big post!
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Old 9 Jan 2012, 06:15 (Ref:3009243)   #97
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Do you giys even know what you are debating ant more,

you just seem to be arguing around in circle, but really nothing, and i would suggest agreeing with each other
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Old 9 Jan 2012, 06:36 (Ref:3009244)   #98
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All fair comment fF1c.
The bit I was trying to articulate about the car cult was that it was the era when owning your own wheels as a young bloke was really starting to become the norm.
You worked hard for it and saved your bucks as soon as you got your first job. (meanwhile the girls you were spending half your hard eared on were saving for a trip to Europe). That being the case the car had a for larger place in your self percieved status.
Nowadays it seem Dad organises you a set of wheels as soon as you are old enough for a license so it doesn't have the same status in your self perception.
Not sure that it is the TV promotion that fails or the fact that it is cheaper, and far more comfortable to watch it live on the box rather than go to the track.
And of course that factor is part of the overexposure or sameness I was talking about.
Perhaps if we could go back to some sort of recognisabe product differentation it might help.
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Old 10 Jan 2012, 23:55 (Ref:3010045)   #99
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Do you giys even know what you are debating ant more,

you just seem to be arguing around in circle, but really nothing, and i would suggest agreeing with each other
I find this a lot in this forum. The subject is very limited and with a small group who have nothing else to do it is bound to go around in circles. Of course this is all driven because the series nowadays is very bland, no variety at all. I have never been to a NASCAR event but I sense it has something about it that SC is missing but I don't know what it is. I am sure we had it in the past but whatever it is has been lost in the quest to make money. I can remember the old night racing at OP under lights where the place just buzzed with excitement, it does not happen any more.
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Old 11 Jan 2012, 01:46 (Ref:3010060)   #100
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I find this a lot in this forum. The subject is very limited and with a small group who have nothing else to do it is bound to go around in circles. Of course this is all driven because the series nowadays is very bland, no variety at all. I have never been to a NASCAR event but I sense it has something about it that SC is missing but I don't know what it is. I am sure we had it in the past but whatever it is has been lost in the quest to make money. I can remember the old night racing at OP under lights where the place just buzzed with excitement, it does not happen any more.
also the people on this forum make up a small minority of the people who actually watch and goto v8s/motorsport
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