Was 2015 season a snoozefest?

[chavez]

Originally Posted by one five five

The tracks are the same width they've always been, and the dimensions of the cars aren't much different to what we have seen for the last 20-25 years either

It's the ruleset & car specs that have made it hard to pass, it's got nothing to do with what tracks they go to



They had a pit stop window until the end of 2008. Everyone just pitted as soon as the window opened.

Minimum 250k races.

Pit as many or a few times you desire.

Soft tyres (and preferably softer) for all races.

[Umai Naa]

Allow more biffo. Who cares if a guy gets punted off line? If he's still on the black stuff, and pointing in the same direction, it's fair play in my opinion. And if he tries to prevent the pass by turning in early, he should be pinged for blocking.

Half the reason there's no passing is because it's too easy to be penalised for even trying.

[Gaz170]

Allow free choice of tyres and pit stops.
Soft tyres - 40% race distance reliably
Medium - 80% distance reliably, full distance if you really nurse them.
Hard - full distance easily, no need to stop.

Fuel - no compulsory need to fuel,but cars can start on part filled tanks and refuel if they wish, or go full distance without refueling if they are careful.

Let strategy and choice play a part in determining the race winner.

[Razor]

The 60km sprints hurt the season. Some races were a little boring but there were some great stuff as well.

[BertMk2]

2015 was the first time I've seen the Australian Touring Cars - expectations were high as everyone seems to rave about it. I have to say it was massively underwhelming the races were largely processional and the cars don't seem to be all that great). BTCC and DTM were better entertainment in 2015.

[M Jones]

The btcc was great! They have short races but have some sort of random tyre allocation - somebody here probably knows more about it than I do. I think you have to run soft tyres in one of the 3 races during the weekend but it is randomly chosen which race for each car. And the soft tyres do go off!

[gtcapri]

Originally Posted by chavez

Minimum 250k races.

Pit as many or a few times you desire.

Soft tyres (and preferably softer) for all races.

Add 50 litre fuel tanks and no pitting under yellow.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by gtcapri

Add 50 litre fuel tanks and no pitting under yellow.

Sorry, what do any of them achieve?

[D.R.T.]

I think the no pitting assists with encouraging drivers to make passes on the track

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

I think the no pitting assists with encouraging drivers to make passes on the track

sorry how? What suddenly causes them to pass? Significant amount of races this year had no safety cars, yet we complain about minimal passing in them. so this wouldnt fix that

my observation is stopping pitting under safety cars eliminates cars from the race thus reduces interest

[D.R.T.]

How exactly does stopping pitting under safety car eliminate cars from the race?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

How exactly does stopping pitting under safety car eliminate cars from the race?

How does no pitting assist with encouraging drivers to make passes on the track?

Car that doesnt stop before the safety car is 50 plus seconds behind those that did once it stops

[racer69]

Originally Posted by M Jones

I think you have to run soft tyres in one of the 3 races during the weekend but it is randomly chosen which race for each car.

It's not random, but each driver has to nominate which race they want to use the softs in before qualifying IIRC

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by M Jones

The btcc was great! They have short races but have some sort of random tyre allocation - somebody here probably knows more about it than I do. I think you have to run soft tyres in one of the 3 races during the weekend but it is randomly chosen which race for each car. And the soft tyres do go off!

But they're dodgems. Any racing there might be is ruined by the appalling driving standards. And the cars are horrible little buzz-boxes with stupid boy-racer body kits.

Originally Posted by peckstar

How does no pitting assist with encouraging drivers to make passes on the track?

Only by removing the possibility of 'passing in the pits' via strategy. If you want to be in front you have to make the move. In reality it probably just means no passing at all, as opposed to no place changes on track.

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Only by removing the possibility of 'passing in the pits' via strategy. If you want to be in front you have to make the move. In reality it probably just means no passing at all, as opposed to no place changes on track.

Probably will also make the track safer by not giving drivers a reason to race back to the pits under yellow

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

Probably will also make the track safer by not giving drivers a reason to race back to the pits under yellow

unrelated issue, makjes racing a snoozefest.

We tried it in v8s, the result was that it took people out of the race and everyone just pitted at the first possibly lap, which creates significantly more danger than cars at speed on the track

[mayhem]

There's a real problem when we are agreeing that pit stops are the main thing responsible for positional changes in a race series, F1 included.

MotoGP doesn't have pit stops and there's more positional changes than F1 and V8 Supercars combined.

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by peckstar

unrelated issue,

potential byproduct with benefits, so very much related

Originally Posted by peckstar

makjes racing a snoozefest.

many people think it already is, therefore won't be detrimental

Originally Posted by peckstar

We tried it in v8s, the result was that it took people out of the race and everyone just pitted at the first possibly lap, which creates significantly more danger than cars at speed on the track

ooooooookkkkkkkkkkaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy....

Tell me how does:
a) Cars race back to pits under yellow with Marshalls potentially trying to remove drivers from damaged cars and commence clean up, with cars then all piling into the pits to get rid of their CPS/refuel/retyre (current situation)

create significantly more danger than

b) cars reduce speed while on track under speed limiting procedure (whether that be Safety Car, Code 60, or whatever), then all piling into the pits to get rid of their CPS/refuel/retyre

[Umai Naa]

The problem they had with closing the pits under yellows, was that cars were getting unfairly trapped in the pits, as they'd just close the lane at both ends as soon as the safety car departed. So anyone that was already in the lane prior to Lord Schenken making the call, was screwed.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

potential byproduct with benefits, so very much related

many people think it already is, therefore won't be detrimental



ooooooookkkkkkkkkkaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy....

Tell me how does:
a) Cars race back to pits under yellow with Marshalls potentially trying to remove drivers from damaged cars and commence clean up, with cars then all piling into the pits to get rid of their CPS/refuel/retyre (current situation)

create significantly more danger than

b) cars reduce speed while on track under speed limiting procedure (whether that be Safety Car, Code 60, or whatever), then all piling into the pits to get rid of their CPS/refuel/retyre

Every car pitting at once under race conditions is more dangerous than cars racing back to pits.

the pits are inherently more dangerous than having Marshall on the track doing clean up.

The ratio of near misses in the pits compared to near misses with Marshall on the track is significantly more

I have no issues with code 60, its something i have been arguing for for about 5 years. Its only now that its being used overseas that people who argued against me are suddenly on board.

However closing the pits under safety car make racing more of a "snoozefest" (I believe "snoozefest" is code for wanting more crashes)

[leothedrummer]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

b) cars reduce speed while on track under speed limiting procedure (whether that be Safety Car, Code 60, or whatever), then all piling into the pits to get rid of their CPS/refuel/retyre

I understand your safety comments, but when talking strictly about excitement, sporting, or entertainment, closing the pits under safety car is about the worst thing that can be done.

As mentioned earlier, it has been used (and removed) from V8 Supercar competition in the past and the result was every car pitting as soon as the pit window opened, then tip toeing around on old tyres for the rest of the race. It was faster to stop half way and run two even stints, but it rarely ever happened - the gamble was far too great as if you got caught by a safety car, your race was done. Two other great examples of why this is a bad thing was the NASCAR Watkins Glen race in 2013 and the Indycar Mid-Ohio race in 2015.

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As for changes I would like to see made to the races, I agree that longer races are the go, but that they should be balanced out by natural fuel and tyre strategies, not forced ones. Teams should be pitting because they need to, not because the rulebook says so.

I attended the 300km Queensland Raceway events in 2004 and 2005 and whilst the race distance was fine as a spectator, the nature of the tyres back then really didn't lend themselves to that length of race. In the 2005 race, Ambrose led Lowndes by a small-ish margin that never changed, they pitted together and the order was reverse, but the gap was the same and that's the way it stayed until the flag. Absolutely nothing happened. When we got home and watched it back on TV, we saw that Lowndes took 2 tyres on the stop, Ambrose took 4 and it made no difference whatsoever. Big problem there IMO.

I also say that the cars should never be hitting the rev-limiters. This has severely limited passing at certain tracks in recent years. The braking performance of the cars is so strong and consistent now that braking duels aren't really a thing anymore, so if two cars are running down the straight two car lengths apart, you can't rely on that gap closing up into the corner like it once would.

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BTCC and DTM have all put on decent shows, but I think if there is any one series that should be looked up to and emulated it is Super GT. The races there are all longer (though they are all co-driver races), it's a multi class series and most importantly, it has open tyre competition. They also have success ballast, but I don't feel like this is as big of a deal as some people make it out to be. I normally would be against such a system, but it does work well here.

The standout race for me as being a perfect example of how a race can be both sporting and exciting was the 2014 Thailand race. It was a 300km race with a single pitstop and after that stop, 3 cars that had been running towards the back of the field and off the pace emerged at the front of the field. At the stop, these cars hadn't changed tyres and this had been their strategy all along (in Super GT, tyres and fuel can't be done at the same time), putting them well out in front, but running at a slower pace. The race then became extremely tense and exciting as the former leaders were having there own battles yet still catching the leading three at an impressive pace, making it a real nail biter to see if they would be able to hang on or not. Great stuff.

So, longer races? (2x250km single driver street races, 1x300km everywhere else, enduros remain the same, that would be my calendar). Softer tyres, or more open tyres choices? Changes to aero/brakes? (Although again, Super GT shows that the tyres are far more important than aero, etc). The Dunlop series field running with the main game as a second class, on harder, slower rubber? (Ok, that one might be a bit of a stretch.....or would it? )

[Umai Naa]

While they managed to revise the drop gear ratio for Bathurst, it certainly needs looking into at other tracks as well.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

While they managed to revise the drop gear ratio for Bathurst, it certainly needs looking into at other tracks as well.

also for Sandown.

Are there many other tracks they are on the limiter (maybe darwin)

drop gear ration is something i would think they are always looking at. however usally a few seconds on the limiter comes with a gain elsewhere on the track

[Trev Campbell]

Originally Posted by leothedrummer

The standout race for me as being a perfect example of how a race can be both sporting and exciting was the 2014 Thailand race. It was a 300km race with a single pitstop and after that stop, 3 cars that had been running towards the back of the field and off the pace emerged at the front of the field. At the stop, these cars hadn't changed tyres and this had been their strategy all along (in Super GT, tyres and fuel can't be done at the same time), putting them well out in front, but running at a slower pace. The race then became extremely tense and exciting as the former leaders were having there own battles yet still catching the leading three at an impressive pace, making it a real nail biter to see if they would be able to hang on or not. Great stuff.

The only issue with trying to do that here is the Safety Car trigger happiness of officialdom. So the guys trying to make it would have their advantage wiped out everytime so people would stop trying to do it. Much like the pit window, a few guys tried it got screwed over by the Safety Car (IIRC The most graphic example was Seto at Eastern Creek on the FTR AU one year) So everyone came in when the pit window opened to reduce the risk. The same thing would happen.

[leothedrummer]

Originally Posted by Trev Campbell

The only issue with trying to do that here is the Safety Car trigger happiness of officialdom. So the guys trying to make it would have their advantage wiped out everytime so people would stop trying to do it. Much like the pit window, a few guys tried it got screwed over by the Safety Car (IIRC The most graphic example was Seto at Eastern Creek on the FTR AU one year) So everyone came in when the pit window opened to reduce the risk. The same thing would happen.

Good point about the safety car eagerness, which is a fairly big issue in itself IMO. Here's a great video to demonstrate: https://youtu.be/_9gHiu0shqA?t=2h16m10s
Discarded tyre carcass at the final turn, abandoned racecar off to the side and possibly the biggest debris field I've ever seen on a race track and guess what? No safety car, no fuss, no one cares, no one dies and the race goes on...

And I also forgot to mention the hard stance on contact. I think this has improved slightly over the years, but I think it still could be a little better. At QR in 2012, James Moffat absolutely stole the show with his charge through the field. He spent the entire race taking a line through the final turn that no one else was taking and it was paying massive dividends for him, but at some stage or another, he made enough contact with another car to warrant a post race points penalty, which was absolutely ridiculous. I still have no idea what it was actually for, that's how silly it was. We left the track thinking "How good was Moffat? Great drive and really exciting to watch" and then got home and read that he was penalized!