Shellsport International Championship 1977

[Dan Rear]

Allen, on the Val F2/At Marches, you ask why he would deal with the cars as he did, I suspect by that time, early 76, the cars were pretty much interchangeable weren't they? Anyone know why Divi hired it in the first place, and finally, 'Rikky Pearce' ???

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

We know the chassis nos of only a very few of the March 723s. Matthews' is not among them.

As far as 'evolution' of cars is concerned, I agree with Allen. Type number should be whatever it gets entered as and then in the chassis number you put the original type number as well. So Musetti's 1975 Atlantic car might be March 74B [723-5]-BDA
having been 73B [723-5] the previous year...

chris

Why do the modifications take presedence over the origins of the chassis?

I understand why you wish to keep the link to the chassis type as entered but after all the car is still a 723 and not a 73B or 74B. Surely the origin is more important than the upgrades which are tenuous to say the least!

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

Why do the modifications take presedence over the origins of the chassis?

I understand why you wish to keep the link to the chassis type as entered but after all the car is still a 723 and not a 73B or 74B. Surely the origin is more important than the upgrades which are tenuous to say the least!

Good point. It depends on the car. A Chevron B23 that's been updated by someone who bought some second-hand B26 bits is still mostly B23 so I'd call it a B23/B26. A 723 that went back to the factory and was rebuilt with all the 73B bits and was thereafter called a 73B is about as much a 73B as any other 73B. You could call it a 723/73B but I can see good reasons to just call it a 73B. The origin is preserved by quoting its original chassis number, so 73B [723/5] as in the example Chris quotes.

I don't know how updated Matthews car was and I don't know whether it went back to the factory. Whether that one was is a 723/73B or a 73B is too fine a judgement for me. As it was always entered as a 73B, I'd go with that personally. If someone else described the same car as 723/73B, I wouldn't argue with them.

A good example is the Williams FW05/1 from 1976. That could be described as Williams FW05 [1] (the contemporary description), Hesketh 308C [1] (the F1R revisionist approach), Williams FW05 [Hesketh 308C/1] (which is what ORC says IIRC) or even Williams (Hesketh) FW05 [308C/1] (the Time and Two Seats approach). All have an arguement in their favour.

When Derek Cook later entered Williams FW05/3, which never was a Hesketh, as a Hesketh 308C despite it being unmodified from its Williams spec, every system probably falls flat on its face!

Allen

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

In the above case I would be tempted to ignore the BT30 references and plump for JUST the BT29/23. After all the car is a BT29 and perpetuating the myth that it is anything else just confuses everyone.

As I said previously 'it's a minefield'!

I did exactly that for a while and got three emails telling me that I was wrong and that Lawrence had a BT30. Somebody even sent me a scan of the entry list to prove I was wrong.

All very well-meaning emails and I thanked each one but a reason why contemporary descriptions shouldn't be completely ignored. For example, F1R call the Lec CRP1 a Pilbeam. That may be strictly correct but I wouldn't take that approach. The Time and Two Seats approach of putting the actual constructor's name in brackets is a good one in this case.

The other reason for sticking with the conteporary description is that you run the risk of extrapolating. For example, I once "corrected" a Lola T330 back to Lola T300 at a number of races only to learn later that the T300 owner had indeed bought a T330 at some point during the season. I then had to go back to original sources to unpick my changes. If I'd "corrected" T330 to "T300/T330", my task would have been so much easier.

Allen

[Andrew Kitson]

Here are a couple of shots of Stan Matthews' March 723 / 73B.
Stan e-mailed me these pics for a painting I am doing for him. He did however lay them flat on a table and shoot them at an angle. I've tried to straighten them up in photoshop from a 45 degree angle using the 'skew' and 'distort' tools, not too bad but might be a few things look out of place perspective wise. No idea who took them but both at Brands.
723 F3 1972



73B F.Atlantic 1973. Stan switched to an Ensign from May '73 onwards.

[allenbrown]

Those are remarkably different cars - radiators resited, front-facing roll hoop supports, different cockpit surround, different nose, plus different engine of course and 'box presumably. How much of it was actually the same? Just the tub? Even the tub?

Allen

[Dan Rear]

Allen agreed re the 2 photos. To most people, certainly tech-numpties like me, they appear to be completely different cars, hardly anything looks the same. Presumably the lower pic shows the car in the guise Val M bought it?

[Andrew Kitson]

I would guess the only bit of 723 used would be the tub. The tub looks outwardly similar in both shots.The cockpit surround of the 73B would be completely different - total new bodywork design and switch to front rad of course for F3 and Atlantic in '73. However the roll hoop is the confusing part. Was the tub for the 73B fitted with a brand new hoop? I've got a colour front on shot too - also straightened in photoshop.
Will post in a mo.

[Andrew Kitson]

Again, no idea who took these and straightened in photoshop.
Not this first one though, still at an angle on the table as Stan shot it. It shows the 723 with bullnose, as some had in '72.



Stan in 73B leads Cyd Williams' BT40 at Mallory.

[allenbrown]

Quite remarkably different!

[Tim Barry]

The Wimhurst raced by Philip Guerola was built by Len Wimhurst using (I believe) the running gear from Guerola's Brabham BT30. Car was later raced in FAtlantic bt Richard Piper. Last I heard of it was in 1989 when Roger Fullager raced it at Lydden with a modified FF2000 Pinto and called it the RJF.

[Andrew Kitson]

This has got me thinking. Stan started the '72 F3 season with the 723 shown using the 'bullnose' as most did. Later it changed to the nose shown in the first picture.
How sure are we Chris/Allen that Stan's 723 did become 73B? Reason I ask having looked at Autocourse '72 results and through Gerald's F3 site ( race reports I assume taken from Autosport/MN?), Stan reverted to his new F3 Ensign for the Silverstone club circuit race on Aug 28th. The day before (27th) in the March, he was involved in a 10 car shunt at the start at Thruxton. Therefore I assume he had 2 race ready F3 cars at end of August - both were in same green/yellow livery. A pretty good debut race in the Ensign, 2nd to Williamson in his heat, 8th in the final.
However for the next race at the Palace 9th Sept, Stan was back in the repaired March again and throughout September at Oulton and Thruxton. 1st of October at Mallory it was the Ensign again until the end of the season. Gerald's report of the 22nd Oct race at Brands states that Nick Crossley was making his F3 debut in the ex-Stan Matthews March 723. Did Nick buy it or did Stan Matthews Racing hire it out?

So was the 73B a pukka Atlantic car from new? - did Crossley use the 723 into '73 in F3? - I think I need to ask Stan if he remembers. Stan did indeed start the '73 Atlantic season with a 73B, but as I said, in May reverted to an Ensign, all cars in the green/yellow livery. He had his final race of his career in the Ensign later that year.

[allenbrown]

Thanks Tim. It was new for 1977, I think.

Allen

[allenbrown]

Hi Andrew

I think you could have something there. If you've found a suggestion that the Mathews 723 had been sold by 1973, we need to look at this afresh.

Allen

[Andrew Kitson]

Actually guys, my mistake. I have the Atlantic cars about face. At the start of 1973, when Stan moved into Atlantics, he stuck with the Ensign marque, having used an Ensign in the latter half of '72 in F3.
He switched to a 73B for the second half of the '73 Atlantic season. If 73B was his 723 and not sold to Crossley, it sounds like it was converted as results were not happening with the Ensign Atlantic car, or a new 73B was purchased.
Interestingly though, his entry in the programme 1973 Sept 30th Atlantic race at Brands is listed as 'March Ford BDA Richardson 723'.
So to confuse things further, was his Atlantic Ensign built using his 1972 F3 Ensign also?

[Dan Rear]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Thanks Tim. It was new for 1977, I think.

Allen

The Piper Wimhurst was out in Atlantic in 1980 and, I think, occasionally in 81 too. Seemed to disappear after that.

[Andrew Kitson]

regarding Nick Crossley, just looked in the 1973 7th April Silverstone Int. Trophy prog, Crossley was in F3 with a 733 (P&M Racing Preparations) so looks like he was in the Matthews 723 for the one event at end of '72. Would he buy it just for the one race though or rented it? Or could he even have shunted it testing in the winter so bought a new 733 for the new season instead?

[Dan Rear]

Couldn't it have been the same car Andrew?

[Andrew Kitson]

Again...possible Dan. Perhaps we need to find out if '72 and '73 tubs were infact similar or close. Andy Gilberg's 'marchives' site any use?

[Bryan Miller]

Gents,

As I have a March 74B perhaps I can assist especially re forward roll bar supports, this is a triangular steel plate that folds over the inside of the tub about 9 '' long on the top which has a boss as part of it to take a 3/8'' u.n.f. cap head bolt , this whole assy is very well rivetted to the tub on the horizontal and sloping vertical sides of the tub.
The only safe way to install is to remove the bag tanks [ a pig of a job ] so that the necessary holes may be drilled to take the rivets .

Re-positioning the radiator requires nose sub. assembly frames , brackets etc , alloy radiator front to rear tubes etc.

Rear wing is via the famous March ''monster bracket '' which carries wing , wing adjuster, oil tank , battery, and catch tank.

In period all achievable , simply go down the road to March and purchase all components and convert , however to go from 723 to 73B as is indicated would entail the following, full new set of body panels , rear wing assembly , front to rear water lines and fittings , car has also lost it's 8.0'' front and 10.00'' rear wheels [ March ] and gained front 10.00'' Melmags and 14.00'' rear [ look like Compomotives] , re-do tub , remove old bolt in roll-over bar and install new to take support braces , also I think battery would have to be re=positioned and new cables, etc. etc.

A hell of a lot of work , maybe the car went back to March or dare I suggest Ecurie Santos and could have been traded on a built up old 732 tub in the best March tradition.

Don't have def. knowledge of F3 spec. brakes , but F/Atlantic had vented front discs and 4 pot calipers and solid rear discs and 2 pot calipers , F3's may have only had solid discs and 2 pots all round.

Bryan.

[Bryan Miller]

Further to the above the gearbox on the F3 would have been a MK 9 Hewland , which you could try and make live with a BDD but as many people found out not really a good answer , the FT200 was the box for F/Atlantic and if this was also changed you then need a different adaptor plate to go with it .

Bryan.

[Chris Townsend]

I think that a number of 73Bs were built by kitting existing cars.
Certainly Mallock's Chequered Flag car was made out of Beuttler's 712M-5 and
Rajah's first car out of 712M-7.
Robin Smythe fitted a BDA to his March 723, though I don't know what bodywork it ran.

Matthews' Ensign is described as a 'LNFB/73' in some reports, and I think it was a new car, but perhaps with a trade in on the F3. One reason for the switch to March was that at Croft 1.7.73 Matthews 'destroyed' [MN] the Ensign and put himself in hospital with crushed vertebrae. [Oh, I remember that feeling]
Entered at Oulton 7.7. in 'March 723' [programme] but obviously DNA - and that entry would have been made prior to writing off the Ensign. Reappears Silverstone 14.7 [a rapid recovery!] with what programme and press calls a 73B. MN says 'brand new'. However, ad in AS at end of season, by Matthews, says the car was
built up at March by his mechanics. I've got a couple of unattributed notes where the press says the car is his 723 kitted.

Chris

[allenbrown]

Interesting. Clearly quite a 'kit' was needed but can't see any reason to doubt what Matthews said in his advert.

We really need those 73B production records, don't we?

Allen

[David McKinney]

Grovelling apology time

Originally Posted by allenbrown

For example, Lawrence had a BT29 that he always entered as a BT30.

I checked a few NZ programmes from when Lawrence was running the Brabham and you're right and I'm wrong - he always entered it as a BT30
(My excuse is that I knew it was a BT29 so presumably didn't upload the BT30 reference into my personal RAM)

[allenbrown]

No problem. Good of you to check.

Allen