performance benchmark for pre 66 FIA cars

[simon drabble]

this is really an evolvement from Terry's excellant thread on what car you would like. I have assumed only cars eligible (and likely to finish) the 6 Hour at Spa as this is a destination race for many....
what I am interested in is the expected optimum time for a legal car and then try and assess relative value. For example a legal MGB can probably do Spa in 3.12? a Mustang 3.07? a 911 in 3.08? I would be really interested in people's view as I would be fascinated in the value against performance as that can then illustrate the "underpriced" cars or perhaps that should be less overpriced!
My guess is that MGB's, Griffiths, Ti Super's will come out well in this but I am interested to see what else does...

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

this is really an evolvement from Terry's excellant thread on what car you would like.

Has he been bribing you again?

Not strictly on topic but if you look at the times you assume as "legal" and then compare them to times set by later Gp 1 "legal" cars you'll see there is little difference all of which suggests to me that the rule makers have got it about right. Although I didn't achieve it this year, I'm certain my car is capable of a 3.09 (ish) time and indeed there was a car (which I considered to be "legal") that achieved that time.

As to pre 66 I'm not familiar with many of the models available other than to watch them but I do think Galaxies doing 3:14 are about as fast as they'll go because you really can't steer or indeed stop them. So for me there is little value.

A Falcon or (that Lincoln version - Roger) seems to be a good bet but they take some driving to get the best out of them, none the less reasonably good value if the rules are followed.

Let's also not forget that your benchmark suffers because many go there just to say "I've raced at Spa", in other words the element of competion comes second to driving the circuit.

[simon drabble]

sure and I am more interested in cars running in the 6 Hour rather than sprint as it gives some idea asto the realistic performance rather than sprint times (in U2TC I think a GTA did 3.02 or something incredible yet in 6 Hour its unlikely to get better than 3.10)

[Peter Mallett]

Well on that basis the 911 is definitely a good bet. I don't think there's anything in that class to touch them.

Indecently well developed E Types would also appear to be good value.

[simon drabble]

at over 100k is the E Type still an obvious buy (and I love them) but agree about 911s (although in days gone buy people used to ignore them saying that they were too slow if legal......)

[Peter Mallett]

Fair comment but it seems that if you want to win you need a well sorted E Type so the value is in what result you want to achieve.

[Mike Sweeney]

Once more, curiosity wins: what tyres are allowed nowadays for the 6hr? and how much has the lap time changed by for the historics with the circuit mods this season?

[rogerwills]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

A Falcon or (that Lincoln version - Roger) seems to be a good bet but they take some driving to get the best out of them, none the less reasonably good value if the rules are followed.

Mercury Comet Cyclone - a big old boat, but boy did it go! 3.03 I think was my best time and I'd never sat in the thing before. Very impressed.

Imagine if there was someone good at the wheel!

Now that sort of thing is serious bang for the buck!

[rogerwills]

Originally Posted by Mike Sweeney

Once more, curiosity wins: what tyres are allowed nowadays for the 6hr? and how much has the lap time changed by for the historics with the circuit mods this season?

Any FIA App K race over 2 hours you can run Avons. They definitely have an advantage over Dunlop Ms. But they put a lot more strain and stress on an old car. And anything big and heavy you would question how long they will last in a 6 hour race.

[simon drabble]

Mike you can run Avons or Dunlops.... the thinking is that Avons will not last 6 hours in the dry and therefore any lap time advantage is disapated by a new set being fitted...

[Mike Sweeney]

Ok, so guessing the lap times discussed are on the Avons?

[simon drabble]

actually I presumed Dunlops...

[zefarelly]

I think your times are optimistic at best Simon

especially if the cars are A legal, B sensibly prepared ( ie money no object) and C, driven by average amateurs like us!

[simon drabble]

well someone give me some colour!

[zefarelly]

look at period lap times, add some for driver deficiencies and take same off for the fact that modern historics are faster than in period as they're over tuned and prepared.

genuinely period cars are hopelessly outpaced today so there is no modern benchmark, and as the last 4 years banter and subsequent conclusions have proved, there won't ever be either.

[simon drabble]

so in short this is a pointless thread - lets close it then!

[terence]

Why close a thread that could turn out to be a really interesting one on pre 66 cars.
Three points come to mind,A} B lap of a 3.12,absolutely possible on dry Avons,I did consistant 13s[2004] on what turned out to be wets [sport] and could not make out what was wrong until after the race,then looked at the tyres!! I had been given the wrong set,my fault,should have checked before I left the shop.
B} A set of Avons will easily do six hours plus a couple of sprint races.
C}Pretty certain that you can run any road tyre as long as the minimum aspect is 70series.[We were forced into this the first time Joe,Chris and Whiz did it in the Griff,being appointed "team manager" I thought it a good idea to read the regs on the Tuesday before we left,having read them and discovered we only had 60series and there was not enough time to get a set of Avons,Joe got some 70s from his local depot and we used them!.
Another thing is that a proper B will live with a legal 911,proven at Spa and Nurburgring!
My car will do 3.08s on 4year old 008s Whizzo would confirm that our times were 1 10th different.

[rogerwills]

Originally Posted by terence bower

B} A set of Avons will easily do six hours plus a couple of sprint races.

On what? Certainly not on a Cobra, E-type or anything else big, fast, heavy.....

[terence]

Originally Posted by rogerwills

On what? Certainly not on a Cobra, E-type or anything else big, fast, heavy.....

I thought Simon was reffering to a B Roger,We did see one set do the whole 6hrs on Joes second win in the other Griff though.As for something really heavy,Mustang,Corvette probably not as far as the leaners are concerned.

[Mike Sweeney]

3:12 with radials sounds feasible enough to me - but therein lies part of the problem - opening up the tyre regulations will clearly lend performance to some cars more than others, ie those that are shod with Avons/whatever as opposed to CR65. Is it not better to compare all cars on the proper period tyre, or for the cars that really cannot use a cross ply, apply some kind of performance-balancing? Or am I just looking for trouble here..?

[terence]

Personally Mike I think we should ALL be using Histo's come rain or shine no matter what the car.That way there are no grumbles over who runs what,it works in HSCC so why not the Six hour?.As for the B,that type of tyre is really not so much slower,gives better gearing for the Blanchimont blast and Kemmel.

[Mike Sweeney]

Agree completely - and the extra fun to be had sliding around on crossplies is worth it alone. Why did Spa go the route of mixed tyres? - you'll know better than I but thought Historic FIA and VdeV also only used Dunlop CR65?

[rogerwills]

Originally Posted by Mike Sweeney

Agree completely - and the extra fun to be had sliding around on crossplies is worth it alone. Why did Spa go the route of mixed tyres? - you'll know better than I but thought Historic FIA and VdeV also only used Dunlop CR65?

Nothing to do with Spa. Just rules that apply under FIA App K for races over 2 hours.

http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...ppK_2006_a.pdf

[terence]

Originally Posted by Mike Sweeney

Agree completely - and the extra fun to be had sliding around on crossplies is worth it alone. Why did Spa go the route of mixed tyres? - you'll know better than I but thought Historic FIA and VdeV also only used Dunlop CR65?

You have the choice of using any 70 series road tyre as stated in the FIA regs as well,there was quite a problem a few years back at Spa when some cars turned out on the latest sticky rubber,that caused some problems!
I still think that putting us all on CR65s would even it out a bit,they are good enough for the E-Types so must be good enough for everyone.

[zefarelly]

Dunlops only IMO

If not just to preserve increasingly scarce and expensive bodyshells

modern rubber tears 50's/60's monocoques to bits, we also see nasty accidents involving road sports/ GT type cars when they're running on Yokahomas etc, too much grip for the car and its relative safety