Goodwood Revival 2013

[john ruston]

It is pointless telling the backmarkers to stick to the line if they don't know what the line is and drive all over the track oblivious to what is happening behind or what is comming up behind.

See the marshalls post.

The cars are available and more thought should be given to drivers as some drivers are stood down for a year due to their feisty driving style when in some cases the blind back markers are at fault.

Win Percy is also under pressure from those who could be considered some of the Goodwood establishment drivers to ensure the lower classes are rained in

I think the job of putting the grids together by the Goodwood gang is a very tough call.

The good thing is that the revival will be a sell out irrespective what cars are invited and very few of the punters know what they are looking at.

It's an event that needs to be attended.

I don't do functions so that bit doesn't effect me!

[henk4]

Originally Posted by john ruston

It is pointless telling the backmarkers to stick to the line if they don't know what the line is and drive all over the track oblivious to what is happening behind or what is comming up behind.

See the marshalls post.

The cars are available and more thought should be given to drivers as some drivers are stood down for a year due to their feisty driving style when in some cases the blind back markers are at fault.

Win Percy is also under pressure from those who could be considered some of the Goodwood establishment drivers to ensure the lower classes are rained in

I think the job of putting the grids together by the Goodwood gang is a very tough call.

The good thing is that the revival will be a sell out irrespective what cars are invited and very few of the punters know what they are looking at.

It's an event that needs to be attended.

I don't do functions so that bit doesn't effect me!

Apparently a lot of testing takes place during the weeks coming up to the Revival, but that's mostly done by those who want to end ahead of everybody else.
Why not make an afternoon testing/driver training mandatory for those who are certainly going to be back markers? That will learn them what the line is....

[one-two]

For me, it was another great Goodwood. The sheer scale of the event is a little off-putting, though I agree that, for the most part, the logistics work remarkably well. The vast numbers of people involved do a good job. I think part of the secret is that there are enough of them. On the subject of driving standards, I experienced some oddities in my race and also had a grassy moment all of my own making. I'd be curious to see some stats on contact. Is there more of it at Goodwood than in comparable racing elsewhere or less or roughly the same? Does it tend to involve the pros or the amateurs or is there no pattern? What, if any, sanctions are, or could be, applied? At a purely casual level, there were incidents in both parts of the touring car race.

[midgetman]

>>>>>but I think in modern sports car racing like Le Mans, it has now been established rule that faster cars have the responsibility to find their way around a slower cars (i.e. the difference between a GTE and an LMP1 car). The slower cars (in relative terms) are also racing and not grid fillers.

In modern sports car racing you have to qualify for a licence or at least be "time served" to race with the big boys whereas in Historics you can buy your International licence after a handful of races round Brands Hatch Club or Mallory Park. While it's good for us impecunious but experienced racers there is a big jump between 8 laps at Mallory and 20 minutes with Kristenson, Alesi et al.

Also there was a reason these cars used to hurt people on a regular basis, they are exceedingly difficult to drive. Maybe there should be an International B licence that requires an enhanced ARDS test in a more powerful car before drivers can get behind the wheels of big bangers. I couldn't presume to jump into a Cobra or old F1 car and circulate at safe speed, many of the guys at the back of the field were no better than me just richer!

Equally, maybe the superstars need to remember that these are not all professional drivers and have to leave a margin for (other people's) errors.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by midgetman

>>>>>but I think in modern sports car racing like Le Mans, it has now been established rule that faster cars have the responsibility to find their way around a slower cars (i.e. the difference between a GTE and an LMP1 car). The slower cars (in relative terms) are also racing and not grid fillers.

In modern sports car racing you have to qualify for a licence or at least be "time served" to race with the big boys whereas in Historics you can buy your International licence after a handful of races round Brands Hatch Club or Mallory Park. While it's good for us impecunious but experienced racers there is a big jump between 8 laps at Mallory and 20 minutes with Kristenson, Alesi et al.

Also there was a reason these cars used to hurt people on a regular basis, they are exceedingly difficult to drive. Maybe there should be an International B licence that requires an enhanced ARDS test in a more powerful car before drivers can get behind the wheels of big bangers. I couldn't presume to jump into a Cobra or old F1 car and circulate at safe speed, many of the guys at the back of the field were no better than me just richer!

Equally, maybe the superstars need to remember that these are not all professional drivers and have to leave a margin for (other people's) errors.

I was referring to modern sports car racing as an example for track behaviour, not for requesting the same driving capabilities. (And it is sometimes intimidating to see how the Audis etc come up flashing behind slower cars that were just doing what they were told to do in the briefing, i.e. keeping their line)

So yes there lies a responsibility with the quicker people as well, although I cannot escape the impression that some people loose contact with reality as soon as the flag falls.

[zefarelly]

St Mary's owners race I have no problem with, most race together regularly and 99% trouble free.

the pro - celebrity bit I'm struggling with at the moment, vastly differing talent, approach and attitudes.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

St Mary's owners race I have no problem with, most race together regularly and 99% trouble free.

the pro - celebrity bit I'm struggling with at the moment, vastly differing talent, approach and attitudes.

and age...

[simon drabble]

let us not forget the same problem exists in modern racing - as Anthony Davidson will testify after the 458 turned into him at last years Le Mans....

[Brian A]

Originally Posted by henk4

John, I do not know what briefing the drivers get, but I think in modern sports car racing like Le Mans, it has now been established rule that faster cars have the responsibility to find their way around a slower cars (i.e. the difference between a GTE and an LMP1 car). The slower cars (in relative terms) are also racing and not grid fillers. They do get blue flags/lights though as a warning, but you cannot punt them out of the way. I will agree that slower cars should keep one line when being lapped and not start swerving over the track, but lapping is a thing between two cars and not just one.
The main problem is that in general firstly cars are invited to participate and not drivers, one just has to wait and see who will be showing up behind the wheel. The same problem goes for the Monaco Historic GP and the Le Mans Classic, which have become high profile events, where participation is a "must" for some people, regardless whether they can drive or not.
It is the prize we have to pay for the fact that inviting high valued cars (which also the public likes to see) will in most cases inevitably mean that the owner wants to drive and he may have better qualities to earn money than to drive a race car.
On the other hand, the need to win a Goodwood race seems to sometimes have taken priority over the art of respectful motor racing. We do not want the Monterey Historics on Goodwood, but one sees more than often in ads to sell a certain car, that it has been a race winner at Goodwood, implying that such a feat increases the value of a car....

The briefings - both the general one on Thursday, and the specific one before the race - gave the normal message about the responsibilities relating to back markers.

Personally I didn't particularly notice many strange lines being taken by back markers, but what I found a little irritating was drivers having noticed a faster car coming up behind clearly indicating that they wanted to be passed on a particular side. Very often this was not the best side to go past and faced with the choice of going the "right" way or the way indicated by the driver - I opted for the latter so as not to surprise them.

My net conclusion is that many of the entrants are not regular racers and lack track experience and etiquette. Recognise this and act accordingly. A key point made in the briefings is that Goodwood is not a championship, it is there for the spectators and bad driving may eventually threaten its continuity. But unfortunately some people think they know better and simply don't listen......

Regarding Goodwood credentials for the cars - surely no-one really wants the label "crashed at Goodwood"?

[henk4]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

let us not forget the same problem exists in modern racing - as Anthony Davidson will testify after the 458 turned into him at last years Le Mans....

yep, things go wrong there too...but the same driver who did this to Anthony was back on track in LM 2013...

[one-two]

Simon, that is a fair and relevant point, but there is also contact between pros. Do you remember that season in F1 when Hamilton and Massa seemed unable to share the track without nudging each other?

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Brian A

The briefings - both the general one on Thursday, and the specific one before the race - gave the normal message about the responsibilities relating to back markers.

Personally I didn't particularly notice many strange lines being taken by back markers, but what I found a little irritating was drivers having noticed a faster car coming up behind clearly indicating that they wanted to be passed on a particular side. Very often this was not the best side to go past and faced with the choice of going the "right" way or the way indicated by the driver - I opted for the latter so as not to surprise them.

My net conclusion is that many of the entrants are not regular racers and lack track experience and etiquette. Recognise this and act accordingly. A key point made in the briefings is that Goodwood is not a championship, it is there for the spectators and bad driving may eventually threaten its continuity. But unfortunately some people think they know better and simply don't listen......

Regarding Goodwood credentials for the cars - surely no-one really wants the label "crashed at Goodwood"?

agreed 100%.

[simon drabble]

Brian I totally disagree - pointing is good etiquette. It shows the slower driver has seen the faster car and should then put themselves in position to be passed. I have been in both situations and will continue to point and thank those who have pointed!

[henk4]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Brian I totally disagree - pointing is good etiquette. It shows the slower driver has seen the faster car and should then put themselves in position to be passed. I have been in both situations and will continue to point and thank those who have pointed!

perhaps Brian was making the point that not everybody was pointing in the right direction?

[Brian A]

Simon, I don't want to discourage pointing, as you rightly say it demonstrates that the driver has seen you coming and is aware that you're going past.

It just always seemed to be the wrong side, that is why it was irritating

[simon drabble]

well the second part is that the slower car should create safe space to let you past but for every slow driver who perhaps doesnt do it properly there is a faster car that either ignores and goes a different way or (especially if its a B8!) cut back in straight away so you have to hit the anchors.... often a fast car does not equal a good driver.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

St Mary's owners race I have no problem with, most race together regularly and 99% trouble free.
the pro - celebrity bit I'm struggling with at the moment, vastly differing talent, approach and attitudes.

Yet it was in the owners race that a totally avoidable incident put two cars out and one of the drivers was lucky to walk away.

I didn't see the pro-celeb race but I'm not aware that any of the three celebs were involved in any incident.

[one-two]

I am amazed how readily people comment on things they haven't seen!

[henk4]

Originally Posted by one-two

I am amazed how readily people comment on things they haven't seen!

good to know....

[morninggents]

If that comment from one-two was directed at me - why? This is a forum discussion. I saw much of all the racing on the live streaming but missed the particular race Zeff mentioned. Apart from general comments on here from both those that were there and those who watched the streaming no adverse comments have been made specifically about the three celebs in the first St. Mary's race. In fact the incident involving Zeff's car was between two pro drivers.

[one-two]

It was. Maybe I simply didn't understand the point. Or why you made it. You say there was an incident in the amateur leg of the saloon car race but not among the tiny number of non-pro celebs in the pro race. What does that tell us? In the context of a thread that says amateurs/wealthy owners/backmarkers are responsible for a disproportionate number of incidents, isn't the more relevant issue the incident involving a multiple Le Mans winner and a Le Mans podium finisher? We shouldn't speculate about responsibility, but I think we can say that it wasn't lack of talent or experience or not knowing the lines.

[simon drabble]

out of interest and without wishing to stir a hornet's nest (although 1-2's Le Mans drivers thing I had heard from others as well) how did a mini end up on its roof? I ask as someone not there and not watching on live stream

[morninggents]

My post was in response to Zeff's post on the St Mary's Trophy races. What my response told you was that as far as those two races were concerned I didn't totally agree with what he said.

If Zeff's second comment related to the wider aspect of pro/amateur driver abilities then I agree with him that there is cause for concern. The trouble is that some of the amateurs are incredibly good whilst others leave a lot to be desired. Same with the pros, unfortunately.

[one-two]

I think we know that the pros are good, no? Some may be a little historic themselves, but they do have the ability. I think there is more to be said, in some cases, about "attitudes and approaches", to use Zef's words.

[TimD]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

out of interest and without wishing to stir a hornet's nest (although 1-2's Le Mans drivers thing I had heard from others as well) how did a mini end up on its roof? I ask as someone not there and not watching on live stream

An Alfa Giulia Berlina was inside it and slightly aft at the apex of St Marys. The Alfa clipped the inner kerb and got air under its left side and thus connected with the left rear of the Mini, pitching it into a spin. The moment the Mini caught the grass on the outside, it went into a dramatic tumble.

Memories of Keith Ripp at Mabbs Bank on BBC Grandstand...