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Old Yesterday, 16:32 (Ref:3753541)   #586
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
I have read that before and it does sum things up. Some of it is pretty much unforgivable IMHO. Basically with Honda getting it all together at the last second. But that is rehashing old news. The question is... what has Honda done since then to stop making stupid decisions (at the project management level) going forward? THAT is something I would love to hear vs. a recount of what went wrong from a technical perspective.
Much of those stupid decisions are McLaren's as well, actually it was all one giant fantasy of McLaren how unorthodox approach could translate into competitiveness on the highest grounds. They wanted to gamble all or nothing hoping they could outgun Mercedes at their own game within one season. Honda was the man power in that game.

That's why they wanted to bring Honda development to UK so they themselves could go ahead and try to turn their fantasy PU into reality once Honda failed. They think they can be better bosses to Honda staff and technology.
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Old Yesterday, 17:09 (Ref:3753551)   #587
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Originally Posted by insane014 View Post
Much of those stupid decisions are McLaren's as well, actually it was all one giant fantasy of McLaren how unorthodox approach could translate into competitiveness on the highest grounds. They wanted to gamble all or nothing hoping they could outgun Mercedes at their own game within one season. Honda was the man power in that game.

That's why they wanted to bring Honda development to UK so they themselves could go ahead and try to turn their fantasy PU into reality once Honda failed. They think they can be better bosses to Honda staff and technology.
I don't see it as a stupid decision at all. McLaren and Honda had a very successful partnership, from 1988 - '91 and Ron Dennis hoped he could could rekindle that. Plus it would initially be an exclusive partnership. Unfortunately it hasn't worked out, much to the chagrin of Honda and McLaren but hopefully they will get right.
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Old Today, 04:00 (Ref:3753675)   #588
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Originally Posted by insane014 View Post
Much of those stupid decisions are McLaren's as well, actually it was all one giant fantasy of McLaren how unorthodox approach could translate into competitiveness on the highest grounds. They wanted to gamble all or nothing hoping they could outgun Mercedes at their own game within one season. Honda was the man power in that game.

That's why they wanted to bring Honda development to UK so they themselves could go ahead and try to turn their fantasy PU into reality once Honda failed. They think they can be better bosses to Honda staff and technology.
I actually wonder of all the singing and dancing around Mr Dennis' future at McLaren took the management team's eye off the ball, of being up Honda ALL the time to get the engine package cooking.
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Old Today, 04:01 (Ref:3753676)   #589
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
I think you are asking if RBR has a veto clause in their agreement with Renault? Interesting question.

I haven't read up on the process for McLaren to switch in 2018 AFTER already having giving official notice of their selected power unit (as they have and have named Honda). Would that include all teams having to agree to the change (effectively giving any team veto power?) or is there some type of force majeure scenario that wouldn't require other team approval? The only force majeure scenario I can think of is if Honda leave F1 completely at end of 2017 (leaving McLaren with no solution). But I don't see that happening. I don't think McLaren wanting to leave Honda would qualify.

Richard
Good questions... did the teams all need to agree to Brawn switching from Honda to Mercedes?
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Old Today, 05:37 (Ref:3753685)   #590
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Good questions... did the teams all need to agree to Brawn switching from Honda to Mercedes?
No. As Brawn GP was a new entry for 2009.

Brawn GP was only registered as an entrant just 3 weeks before the first round in Australia. As a "new entry", FOTA (the now defunct Formula One Teams Association) had zero say in what engine Brawn GP could use. Brawn GP also paid no entry fees for the 2009 season. This was a special deal agreed to by the FiA and FOM, due to "exceptional circumstances".

In the background though, Honda Motor Company funded the entire 2009 season of Brawn GP, and it's staff. It's almost the 10 year anniversary of one of the biggest farcical moments in F1, and in world sports in general, when multinational Honda MC withdrew from F1 - then renamed the team as Brawn GP, still being funded entirely by Honda, who then went on to win both F1 championships as a privateer named Brawn GP - powered by a Mercedes engine!
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Old Today, 09:12 (Ref:3753708)   #591
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No. As Brawn GP was a new entry for 2009.

Brawn GP was only registered as an entrant just 3 weeks before the first round in Australia. As a "new entry", FOTA (the now defunct Formula One Teams Association) had zero say in what engine Brawn GP could use. Brawn GP also paid no entry fees for the 2009 season. This was a special deal agreed to by the FiA and FOM, due to "exceptional circumstances".

In the background though, Honda Motor Company funded the entire 2009 season of Brawn GP, and it's staff. It's almost the 10 year anniversary of one of the biggest farcical moments in F1, and in world sports in general, when multinational Honda MC withdrew from F1 - then renamed the team as Brawn GP, still being funded entirely by Honda, who then went on to win both F1 championships as a privateer named Brawn GP - powered by a Mercedes engine!
I would have thought the entry was the one attached to the original Tyrrell Racing Organisation, that shifted to British American Racing ownership, to the HondaF1 entity, then onto BrawnGP

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Old Today, 12:47 (Ref:3753745)   #592
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Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
I don't see it as a stupid decision at all. McLaren and Honda had a very successful partnership, from 1988 - '91 and Ron Dennis hoped he could could rekindle that. Plus it would initially be an exclusive partnership. Unfortunately it hasn't worked out, much to the chagrin of Honda and McLaren but hopefully they will get right.
Of course they will get it right cause they are spending money and man hours like crazy. All of this fuss how horrible the package is just something to chit chat during the season. Even though its the bad press McLaren got so much more exposure because of it and if it turns into a success story it will be a story of the generation. Everybody is interested in team's progression cause there is an very active development. McLaren would never get that much exposure if they were running in the mid pack like Renault or Williams with leased engines.

I'm cheering for Alonso/McLaren/Honda package cause they work their ass off trying to make up for coming late to the party. The only thing I mind is the public blame game by Boullier. That's like Samsung blaming the battery manufacturer for Note 7 fiasco even though it was Samsung who gave battery specs to the manufacturer. It doesn't work like that and I'm glad that someone pointed the finger at him not to do that kind of stuff in public anymore.

In my opinion if they somehow match Red Bull by 2019 I would consider it a success cause current engine specs were rigged by Mercedes who even threatened to pull out of the caravan if those proposed specs didn't turn out to be official specs. That's whole another story of Mercedes having the technology ready, lobbying for it and then presenting it as remarkable outside the box thinking compared to other teams.
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Old Today, 14:32 (Ref:3753763)   #593
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Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
I don't see it as a stupid decision at all. McLaren and Honda had a very successful partnership, from 1988 - '91 and Ron Dennis hoped he could could rekindle that. Plus it would initially be an exclusive partnership. Unfortunately it hasn't worked out, much to the chagrin of Honda and McLaren but hopefully they will get right.
McLaren pinched the Honda engine supply from Williams, after they had the growing pains (and Spirit before them..) back in the '80's

This time, McLaren is the guinea pig...
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Old Today, 14:39 (Ref:3753765)   #594
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S griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
The main problem is after making good progress last season, it's been thrown away as they have become an embarrassment this season. They need to get their finger out soon
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Old Today, 15:23 (Ref:3753772)   #595
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Originally Posted by GTRMagic View Post
McLaren pinched the Honda engine supply from Williams, after they had the growing pains (and Spirit before them..) back in the '80's

This time, McLaren is the guinea pig...
I remember the Spirit-Honda well. It made its debut at the 1983 Race of Champions at Brands Hatch, which I went to. That was the last year they held the race.

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