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Old 18 Aug 2017, 11:58 (Ref:3760146)   #151
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Originally Posted by porsche962fan View Post
the last 3 meetings have been an RWD parade


And what about all the seasons past where meetings has been dominated by FWD? Maybe they've just got better cars
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 12:07 (Ref:3760147)   #152
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
And what about all the seasons past where meetings has been dominated by FWD? Maybe they've just got better cars
but it's just 2 RWD teams and the rest of about 10 are FWD

doesn't sound proportionate at all
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 12:08 (Ref:3760148)   #153
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But Sheds will still come from nowhere in race 3 at Brands and win the Championship. Possibly wiith some super duper overtaking button fitted by Mr Dick Dastardly after race 2...

what about the other FWD guys?

Tingram , M. Jackson , Austin , Cook etc , they all can't compete with RWD cars
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 12:19 (Ref:3760152)   #154
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but it's just 2 RWD teams and the rest of about 10 are FWD



doesn't sound proportionate at all


So you're saying RWD need to have 10 teams for it to be fair? Get over it, both FWD and RWD are legal and different characteristics suit different tracks
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 13:24 (Ref:3760159)   #155
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what about the other FWD guys?

Tingram , M. Jackson , Austin , Cook etc , they all can't compete with RWD cars
I could have sworn that I saw Ingram win race 3 at Knockhill. Must have been dreaming!
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 13:31 (Ref:3760161)   #156
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I could have sworn that I saw Ingram win race 3 at Knockhill. Must have been dreaming!
I was dreaming too when a Honda Civic won a race at Snetterton,
and when there were two Honda Civics on another podium at Snetterton,
and when a Honda Civic was second to Ingram.

It's all a bit Honda friendly at the moment, so they need to have their brakes degraded somehow?

Or perhaps, people should accept that RWD cars go well at some circuits, and a few of those are close together in the calendar?

Honda fans should be rejoicing in the fact that Shedden is only 12 points behind Sutton after the recent tracks, and that Sutton's teammate has already confirmed that he won't concede race wins for him as it will hurt his pocket.
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 13:47 (Ref:3760163)   #157
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Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
I could have sworn that I saw Ingram win race 3 at Knockhill. Must have been dreaming!
nice straw man


you know very well they couldn't be on podium on their own, only with reversed grid
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 14:04 (Ref:3760166)   #158
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nice straw man


you know very well they couldn't be on podium on their own, only with reversed grid
Croft R1 - Jackson podium
Snetterton R1 - Goff, Neal podium

At the RWD tracks, it is possible for a FWD to get a podium without reverse grid.

At Brands Indy R1, FWD took top 5 places
Donington R1, FWD podium lock-out
Thruxton R1, FWD top 5 with Honda podium lock-out

Did you call for something to be done about FWD dominance after the first 3 events?
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 14:15 (Ref:3760169)   #159
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nice straw man


you know very well they couldn't be on podium on their own, only with reversed grid
So, as I wasn't dreaming, I am pretty sure that the uncompetitiveness of the Toyota must be the reason that Ingram pulled away from the rest of the competitors after both of the safety cars in that race, and why Sheddon came second.
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 15:35 (Ref:3760189)   #160
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It all balances out pretty damn nicely and the racing is competitive each weekend.

What we do have are some people who will moan and whinge and snipe a lot - Neal, Plato, Shedden in particular come to mind - and others like Tingram, Collard, Sutton who will simply get on with doing the best they can.

Possibly that is why I respect the latter three examples more. They may not be champions (yet!) but to my mind have a far better, more positive outlook and are better people for it.
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 15:40 (Ref:3760191)   #161
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OK, so all the arguments about FWD vs RWD got my stats bone twitching.

Taking the records from Wikipedia for all NGTC seasons (2011 onward) and making my own assumptions from memory about which cars had FWD and RWD - so there may be one or two errors, which I can quickly correct if necessary, here's the details about 'dominance':

Year2011201220132014201520162017
Front3027241813199
Rear03612171112
Front %100908060436343
Rear %0102040573757
        
R21 F211816128149
R21 R035913712
R21 F%100867657386743
R21 R%0142443623357

Obviously 2017 is a partial season so far, so I put the comparative data in for all seasons up to and including race 21.

Looks to me like a very roughly 60/40 split either way from 2014 onwards. That tends to indicate to me that the rule makers are getting things right.

It might *feel* like one drivetrain is dominating. It doesn't look like it, though.
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 16:31 (Ref:3760202)   #162
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Originally Posted by Greem View Post
.

It might *feel* like one drivetrain is dominating. It doesn't look like it, though.
have you seen the current standings ?

Turkington 265 RWD
Sutton 261 RWD

Shedden 253
Collard 248 RWD
Ingram 204
Neal 172


if Shedden wasn't there you see total RWD dominance and a big points gap to the FWD cars
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 16:33 (Ref:3760204)   #163
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So, as I wasn't dreaming, I am pretty sure that the uncompetitiveness of the Toyota must be the reason that Ingram pulled away from the rest of the competitors after both of the safety cars in that race, and why Sheddon came second.
and you didn't see that Shedden drove a defensive race to the WSR BMW and BMR Subarus ? that it's very likely if he didn't block them they would have gotten Tingram too


if Tingram could have does this in Race 1 or 2 naturally then fair play but he can't like no other FWD car either
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 18:12 (Ref:3760224)   #164
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So, as I wasn't dreaming, I am pretty sure that the uncompetitiveness of the Toyota must be the reason that Ingram pulled away from the rest of the competitors after both of the safety cars in that race, and why Sheddon came second.
Ignores performance ballast, tyre choice, and the fastest laps and race dominance by the heaviest car on the hard tyre in race 2. And qualifying. And race 1.

FWD qualified 1-2-3-4-6-10.
Race 1 Finished 1-2-3-4-5-8
Race 2 finished 1-2-3-4-5
Race 3 finished 3-4-5-6

People are going to use the reverse grid race 3 as the example of how RWD cars aren't dominating a grid largely filled with FWD? Am I missing something here?

I don't have a problem with the best team building the best car, winning the most races. But BTCC doesn't operate like that - it has a BoP system. And if you operate a BoP style system, and you have a race weekend that is completely one-sided and have cars running in team formation, you arsed it up. This also applies if RWD cars can't get near the front. Although not why Jason Plato can't get near the front whilst Sutton is fighting for the title.

Last edited by Akrapovic; 18 Aug 2017 at 18:19.
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 18:42 (Ref:3760238)   #165
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Originally Posted by porsche962fan View Post
have you seen the current standings ?

Turkington 265 RWD
Sutton 261 RWD

Shedden 253
Collard 248 RWD
Ingram 204
Neal 172


if Shedden wasn't there you see total RWD dominance and a big points gap to the FWD cars
Well if Shedden didn't exist then Ingram and Neal would have quite a few more points.
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 18:45 (Ref:3760240)   #166
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Well if Shedden didn't exist then Ingram and Neal would have quite a few more points.
So would the others though. It wouldn't magically catapult Neal up by almost 100 points whilst having no effect on the others.
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 19:09 (Ref:3760245)   #167
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Every year we seem to go through this it seems, is it really any coincidence that the RWD cars are at the front when you look at who is driving them, they are fast, well sorted cars with top drawer drivers in them, simple as that.
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 19:38 (Ref:3760253)   #168
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Every year we seem to go through this it seems, is it really any coincidence that the RWD cars are at the front when you look at who is driving them, they are fast, well sorted cars with top drawer drivers in them, simple as that.
And this was what I thought, until everybody ran in team formation at Knockhill. Whatever they did last weekend was completely off, for more reasons than just the RWD FWD balance.
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 20:09 (Ref:3760257)   #169
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It all balances out pretty damn nicely and the racing is competitive each weekend.

What we do have are some people who will moan and whinge and snipe a lot - Neal, Plato, Shedden in particular come to mind - and others like Tingram, Collard, Sutton who will simply get on with doing the best they can.

Possibly that is why I respect the latter three examples more. They may not be champions (yet!) but to my mind have a far better, more positive outlook and are better people for it.
I'm really not sure I would hold up Collard as an example of someone who doesn't whinge - in fact, I would add him and Jordan to the first list. Turkington would be someone I would put on the second list.
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 20:18 (Ref:3760259)   #170
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Oh good grief, this is the most ridiculous debate ever and getting sooooo old.

Of all of the drivers in RWD cars, 3 are seeing success. 2 are in a highly experienced world class team in WSR, and the combination of those drivers, team and manufacturer have been working together for a decade or more. Their teammate is hardly blowing anyone out of the water.

The 3rd guy is in a manufacturer supported, well funded team and is a rising sensation. His teammates have hardly blown anyone else out of the water.

Shedden is also in a manufacturer team which he has a long pedigree with.

If there was a RWD bias/dominance, there would be 7 RWD cars in the top 7 places. Turkington would have been 5 time champion by now. Oh, that's if Rob Austin hadn't wiped the floor with everyone else in his RWD Audi.

The fact is that the most professional set ups are 'dominating' - that means professional in terms of funding, support, team management, experience, driving skill etc. They know what they're doing, do it well and have done for years.

I think it's fine to have favourites and to feel aggrieved when they aren't doing so well, but I hate this blame culture that plagues society these days. Some people have worked incredibly hard and are incredibly talented and are reaping the rewards. BOP does its best to even out the playing field and it ebbs and flows as it tries to do that, but it can't balance out how a whole package works and performs. If some people are more successful, the rest have to up their game. Simple. Always has been. That's the reason that Honda have spent some seasons having an 'unfair advantage' and others being 'unfairly disadvantaged' and still end the seasons there or there abouts. Same with Turkington.

Can we just stop this now?
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 20:43 (Ref:3760267)   #171
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The fact is that the most professional set ups are 'dominating' - that means professional in terms of funding, support, team management, experience, driving skill etc. They know what they're doing, do it well and have done for years.

I think it's fine to have favourites and to feel aggrieved when they aren't doing so well, but I hate this blame culture that plagues society these days. Some people have worked incredibly hard and are incredibly talented and are reaping the rewards. BOP does its best to even out the playing field and it ebbs and flows as it tries to do that, but it can't balance out how a whole package works and performs. If some people are more successful, the rest have to up their game. Simple. Always has been. That's the reason that Honda have spent some seasons having an 'unfair advantage' and others being 'unfairly disadvantaged' and still end the seasons there or there abouts. Same with Turkington.

Can we just stop this now?
is it fine that a guy like James Cole can confortably be ahead of the likes of M Jackson, Tingram , Goff and Co ??


RWD need a slight boost cut specially BMR
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 21:17 (Ref:3760272)   #172
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is it fine that a guy like James Cole can confortably be ahead of the likes of M Jackson, Tingram , Goff and Co ??


RWD need a slight boost cut specially BMR
Except he's not ahead of them in the championship! He's just had some good results in a well-engineered car at tracks that suit it.

Is it fine that a guy like Jordan (former champion in FWD) can be comfortably behind the likes of Moffatt now that he's in the better RWD? (as happened at thruxton)
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Old 19 Aug 2017, 11:20 (Ref:3760359)   #173
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Give Cole credit, if he was that bad, he wouldn't have been able to stand the heat of being up the front these last 3 meetings
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Old 19 Aug 2017, 12:52 (Ref:3760380)   #174
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have you seen the current standings ?

Turkington 265 RWD
Sutton 261 RWD

Shedden 253
Collard 248 RWD
Ingram 204
Neal 172


if Shedden wasn't there you see total RWD dominance and a big points gap to the FWD cars
Except we've just come off a run of three circuits that favour rear wheel drive cars. The next three circuits will suit front wheel drive cars: Hondas in particular at Rockingham, MGs and Toyotas at Silverstone.
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Old 19 Aug 2017, 13:49 (Ref:3760389)   #175
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have you seen the current standings ?
Yes.

Have you stepped back from the screen far enough to look at the bigger picture?

I wouldn't ordinarily poke at a sore, but this whole "argument" is completely out of hand. There is *no* dominance over seasons as a whole.
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