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Old 7 Jun 2003, 03:06 (Ref:623541)   #1
T.D.F.
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guilty untill proven innocent

I don't know how many other drivers have been in my position all I can hope is that im not there again.
On Sat.31.05.03 I was at Lydden for my second race in the series this year. At first practice I was called in for crossing the white line at the bottom of Hairy Hill and on my second practice having ended up in the gravel at Devils elbow I was once again called in to be repremanded for removing my crash helmet while still on track. First time ever in 9yrs of holding a racing licence repremanded for anything. In race N.4 full grid and very bunched up I was involved in an incident at devils elbow and the result of which was that two other cars were written off. At the end of the race I was called to the Clerk of the course and there I was made to read six marshals reports of the sequence of events five of which laid the blame at my feet suggesting that in trying to overtake the car in front I had forced the car next to me off thge trak and in turn the one next to him. no amount of protestations that that was not how it had happened seemed to impress the Clerk of the Course. I suggested there might be video evidence to show how things had really gone but I was told that there was no M.S.A. controlled filming. I was charged with Wreckless/Dangerous Driving fined £200.00 my licence endorsed with 6 points and excluded from the days racing, Having been given 30mins to appeal I felt I was on a lost cause. However I did find someone who had videoded the accident and I did appeal the decision and as a result the M.S.A. officials found me not guilty of wrecless driving and downgraded the charge to E.5.1.8.
So whats my gripe? Firstly that by the time I appealed the whole paddock new of my charge and of the marshals reports, then that the appeal was not over till 8pm by which time all had left and the subsequet stories in the Motoring news and Autosport reflected the earlier decision, Had it not been for the video evidence I might as well have been hung to the nearest tree. The video supports my statement to the Clerk of the course as does the damage to my car now that I have had time to examine it properly. My simpathy as at all times been with the other two drivers who not only lost their vehicles but had a close brush with serious injury and had I not been able to present my appeal I wpould have had to live with the responsibilaty of the charge for the rest of my life. The point I,m trying to make and taking so long to get to it is that in the case of charges os such a serious nature and consequence 30mins. is not enough time to seek evidence on which to base an appeal. Regards to all.
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Old 7 Jun 2003, 09:11 (Ref:623677)   #2
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OK, I'll start somewhere around the end of your post....

I ageee, I think having to indicate that you wish to appeal within 30 minutes is too short. However, that is what the MSA say so the only way to change it is to lobby them.

The judicial system should be confidential until it is all sorted, IMO drivers are usually the worst for this and discuss what they've seen with all and sundry. If the info came out of race control - other than by being communicated to other drivers that had been seen by the clerk - then that is not how the system should operate.

As for the time that it finished, imagine how the Clerk and the Secretary of the Meeting felt? They will all be unpaid officials and will have had journeys home to look forward to. What I'm trying to say is that I think it is unlikely that any clerk will make a cr*p decision for the hell of it. They know that it is likely to be appealed and that they will then be stuck there for the duration.

A clerk can only make a decision on the information that he has received, in your case it does seem that this info. contrasted with the video evidence available and whilst there is always a different view point on an incident I'm surprised by the differences that you describe.

At least the fact that there is an appeal process allowed you to get the clerk's decision overturned on the night.

Not sure if any of this helps...
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Old 7 Jun 2003, 10:08 (Ref:623716)   #3
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Thanks for your support wirth regards the time issue. And I hope that you do not speak from personal experience however with regards the appeal the agenda which was set by the M.S.A. was to establish whether the CofC had come to the correct decision considering the evidence he had and for that to be the marshals reports putting my car in variuos positions simply to reinforce their assumptions as to what was going on on track made it impossible to challenge without video evidence. The video evidence was not admissable simply because it existed so thankfully they accepted it as otherwise today I would have been an even angrier person. Cost seems to be too much an overiding factor in these cases; officials can't afford to stay late, circuits can't afford video evidence, and competitors can't afford the increased cost of competing all rounds are we now getting to the stage of saying can you afford to be innocent? My charge was downgraded and although I'm gratefull it still feels like a compromise. To add insult to injury the club have now asked me to resign my membership or face the embarassment of expulsion commenting that they don't see how the M.S.A. officials could have accepted the video as contradicting evidence, is this the appeal on the appeal or is this just politics. In eight yrs. of driving I've never been called to the CofC. for a reppremand. Is this amount of grief because two cars were wrecked and so instead of £'s were talking Euros? So the dividing line between close racing and dangerous racing is the cost of the damage? If that were the case there would be no more motorsport.regards.
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Old 11 Jun 2003, 09:22 (Ref:627979)   #4
Bob Pearson
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TDF, What are the details of the charge of removing helmet while still on track. I guess that anywhere on the trackside of the bank is considered track, since you were already in the gravel trap. That being the case why are marshals allowed on a live track without a helmet? It all sounds a bit inconsistent to me.
I have to say that Lydden officials aren't usually among the trouble makers, but then again I haven't been for a couple of years now.
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Old 11 Jun 2003, 13:14 (Ref:628237)   #5
Stephen Green
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T.D.F. whilst I can't and won't comment on the specific accident to which you refer, let me explain what happens in order for the C of the C to obtain his/her evidence.

Each marshals post has an Observer in charge. It is his/her job to note any infringements and to make written reports to the C of the C at the end of each session or race. If an incident happens over the course of several marshals posts, then expect there to be multiple reports back to the C of the C.

In the majority of cases accidents are not discussed over radios as they are open to people with scanners evesdropping. More likely is that the incident is reported by telephone and then follwed up by a written report at the end of the session/race. Under normal circumstances marshals posts are unable to converse with each other, unless it be by rudimentary hand signals such as those used for requesting a straight tow or calling for a doctor or rescue unit.

From what you have said, there would appear to have been several marshals posts all reporting the same thing? If that is the case then it would be reasonable for the C of the C to come to the conclusion that several reports stating the same thing are more than probably correct. (I hope you see my reasoning here)

As an Observer myself, though not at Lydden for the meeting in question, I can tell you that we are told during training days that we should state the facts and not our 'opinions' in Observers reports.

I am not trying to say you were right or wrong in this matter, merely trying to explain to you the way things happen with regard to marshalling.

Without trying to sound flippant in any way, I would invite you to attend a marshals training day to see just how thorough these matters are dealt with. From the marshals point of view, it is always good to have a driver present to explain how things look from their perspective. I would imagine that the Observers reports and the video evidence would provide useful examples for future training days. What chance is there of getting hold of a copy of the video?

Lastly, I would like to point out that the only time marshals have to discuss matters such as the accident you mention, are during the often non existant lunch break, or after the days racing has finished. It would seem possible that the 'chatter' in the paddock came from other sources?

I am truly sorry that you have suffered in the manner you mention but would assure you that NO marshal offers their services with the express intention of 'getting' a driver. We all love motorsport dearly and are glad that people like yourself provide us with a hobby and good entertainment.

Hopefully my comments have been informative.
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Old 11 Jun 2003, 13:51 (Ref:628277)   #6
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So who are you blaming TDF? The marshals for stating what they saw and reported, the officials for the manner in which your case was dealt with, or the whole judiciary system?

Being a Lydden marshal myself, I would be most interested to know which posts submitted reports. (I wasn't there on the day of your incident though)
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Old 19 Jun 2003, 20:52 (Ref:636991)   #7
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I'm sorry if I have not replied sooner to all those of you who have taken the time to post your thoughts but I've been away to an Italian wedding and my feet are only now finding their way again. with regards to the helmet ticking off I was told that crash helmets should not be removed while still on track even if the vehicle your in is being towed back to Paddock, I appologised and accepted my seniors point of view.
While at the CoC's office and later with the MSA on appeal I had no trouble in accepting that the decision the CoC had come to was the only one available to him considering the consistency Of the six reports. Of the reports there was only one, by a young lady which was worded not only clearly but impartially as the videos would later support, the difference between them (the reports) was subtle the other five suggested apects of the accident that were not accurate but would reinforce their assertion that I was in the process of overtaking a slowing car on the track. The two available videos show exactly what happened and support my version of events and not theirs. So what is my complaint? Simply that 30mins is not enough to obtain sufficient evidence to mount any kind of defence or procecution, and in the case of serious charges with serious concequences some other mecchanism must be found and it is not sufficient to quote the cost and time factor after all I paid £125.00 for the appeal to be heard and face the prospect of a further £500.00 to ask the MSA to arbitrate between the club and I as they feel I wasn't sufficiently dealt with. This of course is, as the incident wasn't properly analised due to time and cost costraints.
However the availabilaty of video evidence in todays modern climate is really not a sustainable excuse but I also accept that my circumstances may be the exeption and not the rule.
As for the possibilaty of using the videos and subsequent accident report based on them, for instructive purposes I would be more than glad to pass them on once all is over.
Regards

Last edited by T.D.F.; 19 Jun 2003 at 20:54.
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Old 24 Jun 2003, 12:39 (Ref:641416)   #8
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TDF - I don't see what can be done to change this. Racing is a weekend hobby and like someone else has already pointed out many of the people helping to run the events are unpaid volunteers.

In this case the CoC was given six separate statements by entirely independent witnesses, five of which seemed to indicate that you should should take some responsibility. What other choice did he have but to take action?

I was stood on the bank right opposite the crash. I was paying closer attention than most because the slowing car was being driven by my mate Dan Nash, he had been leading the historic race earlier and we'd just heard his exhaust go on the run down to Paddock on the previous lap.

It was a racing 'incident' but there's no such thing as an 'accident' and if the CoC thought action was necessary he has a job to do.

The driver of any car is responsible for ensuring it is safe on the track at all times - and that doesn't just mean it can pass scrutineering. You've already admitted that the handling was wayward because of suspension issues so the question asked to be asked - why did you continue to race that day? That was your decision. These issues may not have caused this particular incident but the general manner your car was seen to be driven in for the rest of the day can't have helped your cause.

I can only add that when we formed up for the Group One grid I was relieved that your white Escort remained in the paddock.
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Old 25 Jun 2003, 08:15 (Ref:642353)   #9
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Snapper Baz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSnapper Baz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I think one problem was that Apparently, having spun into the gravel trap-you sat in your car for an unreasonable amount of time-long enough to take your crash helmet off for some reason! With marshals trying to get you out of the car by arm waving and shouting you stayed in the car instead of getting out straight away...possibly with the hope of getting the session stopped-who knows? Most drivers, once stuck ankle deep in such a place would get out and head for the safety of the bank straight away and not linger in a car in the firing line of on coming traffic. Or was there another reason for a not so quick escape from your car...obviously knowing that another car at any second could do what you just did and slam into your stationary car??
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Old 25 Jun 2003, 08:24 (Ref:642361)   #10
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If you did remove your helmet before exiting the car, then I expect that's why you got the words you did from the C of the C.
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Old 25 Jun 2003, 08:25 (Ref:642362)   #11
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Snapper Baz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSnapper Baz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
PS:having seen, along with at least five other nearby collegues, that the incident out of the Devils Elbow and up the hill was TOTALLY AVOIDABLE and we were all left in a state of disbelief at what we had just witnessed-and what was left of a superb looking Dolomite (and Escort)that somebody had spent a fortune on (and time)in preparing for what should have been a fun event.
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Old 25 Jun 2003, 08:26 (Ref:642365)   #12
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Snapper Baz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSnapper Baz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
PPS: Before you complain about being a marshal-I'm not!
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Old 25 Jun 2003, 09:07 (Ref:642395)   #13
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Um,

I wonder if we could have this thread locked? I believe it does nobody any good to wash dirty linien in public and as has been said, this subject is currently being reviewed by the relevant "Club committee" where no doubt the views of the members will be considered.

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Old 25 Jun 2003, 09:52 (Ref:642441)   #14
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Done
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Old 25 Jun 2003, 09:52 (Ref:642442)   #15
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I'm in agreement with Pete - this is turning into a character assasination. Thread closed.

(Stephen tries to close it, but realises he's in the wrong forum )

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