[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[TF110]

Short video on the ZF clutch used in the TS050 and look at some of the TMG facilities.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

If the TS050 was crap, would both cars between them lead about 2/3 of the race, and set some of the race's fastest laps and fastest stints? Also, considering that the chassis is a clear evolution of the TS040's (Mulsanne's Corner as photos to back this up, as does Racecar Engineering) and the aero on the car, especially in LM trim, was also very good, it's clear that the problem that Toyota had last year was that the car was simply underpowered. The NA V8 didn't have the grunt, guts or surge to do much when the hybrid system petered out. And even the hybrid system was made obsolescent by Porsche's 8MJ battery system, as well as the fact that it was known by then that Audi were looking to switch to batteries for 2016.

I know that people are arguing that the TS050 was rushed approx. a year ahead of schedule. But not only will Toyota (due to the ACO pushing back the 2018 new chassis rules back a season from their intended 2017 launch) get to use the car as is with development for two seasons, but I'd argue that this is the car that Toyota should've had back in 2014, let alone last season. It's a ton faster, has more development potential, especially on the mechanical side, and IMO, it even looks better than the TS040. Granted, I like the LED light technology that Audi and now Porsche are using, but some of the lines of the car are made possible by Toyota sticking with xenon/projector headlights (IMO, all the current LMP1 cars would look better if they were 2000mm wide).

Considering that even when they bored out the engine to 3.7 liters (so Toyota didn't exactly downsize there, rather, they took advantage of no engine capacity limits to try and get some more torque) that the engine was down on torque and top end power, I don't know why Toyota, who had success with a small four cylinder turbo engine in IMSA GTP racing, waited to go the forced induction route. But then again, I don't know of many Toyota cars, especially in North America, that are sold with turbocharged engines (IMO, that's a shame).

Also of note, according to what telemetry I saw during the race, the drivers were shifting at around 7000rpm, lower than I expected for a 2.4 liter engine. Presumably, Toyota are running quite a bit of turbocharger boost to keep revs down and boost torque., especially since they're running a 6 speed gearbox counter to their PR claims early in the season (though they've been suspected of running a 6 speed last season at least).

+1....^^^^^^.......what he just said......a real shame its taken Toyota 3 years to work out they are under-powered, they easily could have built this style of car and turbo powertrain in 2014......but I can imagine the engine teams were just stuck in their old F1 ways of the normally-Aspirated route.......but hey I'm apparently a bigot and have an axe to grind, so what do I know eh......

[chernaudi]

Blaming a driver for the failure of a $5 dollar part on a probably $2 million dollar (if not more?) race car was IMO stretching things and reaching for straws. But there's no denying that Toyota screwed up with the TS040 and not being more aggressive with developing it from the TS030 as far as distance between the concepts. IMO, Toyota were a bit lucky in 2014 in that they were in the right place at the right time with a car that was fast and mostly reliable. Audi messed up big time on getting caught out on the EOT stuff, and the Porsche was too new and too fragile until the end of the season in '14.

TMG certainly didn't help themselves too much with what was ultimately a fairly conservative updating of the car last year. Though in fairness, almost any other season, TMG's upgrades would've kept them in the game beyond Silverstone. But Audi and Porsche introduced so many rapid developments (even Audi, who've been known to sort of slack off on in-season developments of their cars post LM, certainly after the next couple of sprint races to focus on next season's car and developments, continually worked on the 2015 R18 almost until season's end last year) that Toyota got left behind after Silverstone and started focusing much earlier on the TS050 than they initially planned.

And yes, Toyota had success with forced induction in the JSPC, IMSA GTP and with the GT-One. But I'm not about to blame TMG for something that they had little direct control over. The blame there lies with the corporate bean counters in Japan for stiffing TMG by one, not giving their program the funding and support it deserved, and two, sticking them with, for what/all I know, was an upgraded Formula Nippon engine that was similar to, and an enhanced development of, the engine that Toyota were already renting out to Rebellion.

[TF110]

Bs. The '14 TS040 was the best car of the field by a long shot. It wasn't luck. I remember quite clearly the talk about the TS030 in late 2013 matching Audi because they gave up development then to concentrate on 2014's R18. And that car was going to be the best of the field. They won LM but the car was no match for the TS040. So how did it take Toyota "3 years" to get a more powerful engine? They took 1 year, actually less. They realized the engine and hybrid had to be upgraded only two races in during last year's season. They responded by bring out this year's car which again showed top pace at LM. Now I wonder what the rest of the season will look like. And 2017 should be just as good.

[chernaudi]

If the '14 car was so good, why were Porsche faster the last couple of races of the season? And why were they so off the pace aside from one last in '15?

Face it, Toyota were in the right place at the right time in '14 as much as anything. And that's the thing with technology; by the time it enters use, it's already on the verge of being obsolescent because of what someone else is developing, or what the entrant themselves are developing.

[Beryl]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

If the '14 car was so good, why were Porsche faster the last couple of races of the season?

They weren't.

Bahrain: The #8 was walking away from the rest of the field until an alternator problem curtailed their dominance. The #7 inherited the lead and won with a decent margin, despite Sarrazin putting in an embarrassing performance (roughly a second a lap slower than Conway, nevermind Buemi or Davidson).

Interlagos: The altitude favoured the turbo Porsche over the atmospheric Toyota, yet the #8 was still right there. The difference was Buemi and Davidson both spinning and the winning Porsche gaining time through pitting during the FCY.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Beryl

They weren't.

Bahrain: The #8 was walking away from the rest of the field until an alternator problem curtailed their dominance. The #7 inherited the lead and won with a decent margin, despite Sarrazin putting in an embarrassing performance (roughly a second a lap slower than Conway, nevermind Buemi or Davidson).

Interlagos: The altitude favoured the turbo Porsche over the atmospheric Toyota, yet the #8 was still right there. The difference was Buemi and Davidson both spinning and the winning Porsche gaining time through pitting during the FCY.

Yup. And don't forget that Porsche won thanks in part to it's sister car crashing which cut the race short just as Toyota was catching the lead Porsche rapidly. Sarrazin wasn't very good with the 2014 car, nor the 2015. Seems he likes that turbo power better this year, though. Audi and Porsche both came with brand new cars in 2015, Toyota updated it's 2014 car. No wonder they weren't as fast.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by knighty

+1....^^^^^^.......what he just said......a real shame its taken Toyota 3 years to work out they are under-powered, they easily could have built this style of car and turbo powertrain in 2014......but I can imagine the engine teams were just stuck in their old F1 ways of the normally-Aspirated route.......but hey I'm apparently a bigot and have an axe to grind, so what do I know eh......

No, you have been extremely consistent with calling out Toyota for not going down the turbo route soon enough and have been proved right.

The reason why people say you have an axe to grind is how you've linked it with Honda's struggles in F1, which are of an entirely different nature. The only link is that both companies are Japanese.

And you've STILL not responded to your Nakajima comment. How on earth was Toyota's retirement his fault? Other than the fact he was in the car at the time and happens to be Japanese. The only possible explanation I can think of for saying that his "reputation proceeded him" from F1 was that you were getting confused with Kobayashi in the other car, who DID make a mistake.

All your comments about the powertrain are fine, and you've been proved right there, so well done. It's when you start throwing Honda and Japanese drivers into the mix as well that people start to throw accusations at you, and you've not explained those comments very well.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Beryl

They weren't.

Bahrain: The #8 was walking away from the rest of the field until an alternator problem curtailed their dominance. The #7 inherited the lead and won with a decent margin, despite Sarrazin putting in an embarrassing performance (roughly a second a lap slower than Conway, nevermind Buemi or Davidson).

Interlagos: The altitude favoured the turbo Porsche over the atmospheric Toyota, yet the #8 was still right there. The difference was Buemi and Davidson both spinning and the winning Porsche gaining time through pitting during the FCY.

I don't want to get into this argument as I feel it serves little purpose but:
The # 14 Porsche did 137 Laps (out of the 249 for the entire race) under or equal to 1:20.0 with an average time of 1:18.8. The fastest Toyota #8 did 136 laps under or equal to 1:20.0 with an average time of 1:19.3. Yes, they were faster that the Porsche #20, but not faster than the #14.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by knighty

sounds like a wiggins type connector has popped off.......riding the kerbs would explain it, but this is why you put silicone flex-joints in the air-ducting, I can imaging the wiggins connector was taking all the flex loading and simply popped off......my stance has not changed either way.....the engine package is still under-developed, this is a school-boy design error type problem that just should not have happened.

This is why Audi and Porsche continue to test at Sebring. It's something Toyota will need to do if they ever intend on winning at Le Mans.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

No, you have been extremely consistent with calling out Toyota for not going down the turbo route soon enough and have been proved right.

The reason why people say you have an axe to grind is how you've linked it with Honda's struggles in F1, which are of an entirely different nature. The only link is that both companies are Japanese.

And you've STILL not responded to your Nakajima comment. How on earth was Toyota's retirement his fault? Other than the fact he was in the car at the time and happens to be Japanese. The only possible explanation I can think of for saying that his "reputation proceeded him" from F1 was that you were getting confused with Kobayashi in the other car, who DID make a mistake.

All your comments about the powertrain are fine, and you've been proved right there, so well done. It's when you start throwing Honda and Japanese drivers into the mix as well that people start to throw accusations at you, and you've not explained those comments very well.

If you care to take a read back through my posts I said "nakajima is a liability and should not have been in the car in the first place".......I specifically did not say "its nakajimas fault"......my overall point was he is a contributing factor the the retirement, but not the main reason.......the experienced drivers that have won multiple LeMans learn how to stroke the car and look after it over the distance, not go out and drive it like a go-kart in a sprint race.......its a question of experience and maturity that Nakajima does not yet have.

The other contributing factor has been well highlighted by MoMedic......testing at Sebring rattles the hell out of the car.......Toyota didnt test there, probably due to budget limitations......the Toyota failure at LeMans is a combination of multiple factors ranging from drivers, poor design and budgetary limitations, and I'm sorry to say - cultural differences.

Regarding Hondas F1 plight, Honda have publicly said they dont like hiring external consultants, jesus if we had that attitude in my line of work we would be dead in the water.......I'm sure this went down like a turd in a punch-bowl at McLaren.......just look what Renault and Ferrari have done by poaching some top Mercedes engine people......all of a sudden they are back up the front......McLaren can hardly break into the top 10 or finish a race.......Honda and their approach are just an embarrassment, I wouldnt be surprised if Alonso walks.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

This is why Audi and Porsche continue to test at Sebring. It's something Toyota will need to do if they ever intend on winning at Le Mans.

Porsche haven't tested their LMP1 cars at Sebring since 2014. Though that didn't seem to slow them down in '15 or this year (could explain some of their reliability issues last season and this year, though).

And other than Dec. last year, Audi haven't tested at Sebring. They did have a test planned in late Jan/early Feb but it got cancelled due to car updates. IMO, that does also maybe explain some of the Audi issues this season.

[chernaudi]

Also, TMG have plenty of people from other organizations (or at least worked for other organizations) who work for them. Vasselon for example worked for Michelin in F1 before TMG hired him. He also had a stint at Renault in F1 in the 1980s.

Toyota's big problem in F1 was corporate meddling and basically keeping TMG from doing their job. Their WEC program has less corporate meddling, but that also seems to mean less funding. Though it was corporate meddling from the home office in Japan (though funding issues) that left TMG stuck with the NA V8. It was fine in the TS030 when the engine rules were based on displacement limits and air restrictor BOP, but once we went to unlimited displacement and fuel flow being the main BOP instrument, that made the V8 obsolete basically within a season.

Also, I don't know why the angst against Nakajima, other than the fact that when he didn't put up undistinguished drives in F1 he usually crashed. He's been no more a liability in the WEC than Kamui has been, who people have gushed over (rightfully so IMO) and is known for his take no prisoners overtaking style.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by knighty

The other contributing factor has been well highlighted by MoMedic......testing at Sebring rattles the hell out of the car.......Toyota didnt test there, probably due to budget limitations......the Toyota failure at LeMans is a combination of multiple factors ranging from drivers, poor design and budgetary limitations, and I'm sorry to say - cultural differences.

Sebring tests are no longer truly reflective of where teams are at. Porsche didn't test at Sebring either, and yet they won Le Mans now two years in a row.

EDIT: Damn me for not reading two posts above.

As for the reasons you gave about Nakajima there, sorry, still not good enough and I don't see it applying any longer. And a question: had that connector popped with Davidson or Buemi or Conway in the other car driving, would you have cast the same aspersions on them?

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Sebring tests are no longer truly reflective of where teams are at. Porsche didn't test at Sebring either, and yet they won Le Mans now two years in a row.

As an initial shakedown of a new, unproven car, or a car that has never run there, it's VERY wise to do so. The billiard smooth tracks found in Europe wil never break a car the way Sebring can. Porsche have not run there in recent days because the car in it's current form, is well proven and the issues that would break at Sebring have been resolved or isolated...they are highly unlikely to break elsewhere.

Toyota needs to go and break their car. I understand budgets are tough, but, if you want to win, you have to break your car.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

As an initial shakedown of a new, unproven car, or a car that has never run there, it's VERY wise to do so. The billiard smooth tracks found in Europe wil never break a car the way Sebring can. Porsche have not run there in recent days because the car in it's current form, is well proven and the issues that would break at Sebring have been resolved or isolated...they are highly unlikely to break elsewhere.

Toyota needs to go and break their car. I understand budgets are tough, but, if you want to win, you have to break your car.

Sebring isn't reflective of the tracks they actually race on though. And don't forget, test days in WEC (both public and private) are now limited by the regulations, and teams see more value in testing together at the same tracks (3-4 teams at a time).

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Sebring isn't reflective of the tracks they actually race on though. And don't forget, test days in WEC (both public and private) are now limited by the regulations, and teams see more value in testing together at the same tracks (3-4 teams at a time).

While this may be true, if you want to win at Le Mans, you need to find all of your faults. The only way to do it, is to break the car. That's not going to happen at Ricard, or Monza, or anywhere in Europe.

[TF110]

TMG has shakers and all, so there's no need for a bumpy Sebring test. It could have been a bad installation. The best get it wrong at times. Look at Mercedes' F1 team and the silly mistakes that cause engine failures. Didn't affect the #6 car. They lost the race when they had contact with a GTE-AM Aston in the night.

[Japanese Samurai]

Special edition of Motor Fan Illustrated magazine is published in July 9.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

While this may be true, if you want to win at Le Mans, you need to find all of your faults. The only way to do it, is to break the car. That's not going to happen at Ricard, or Monza, or anywhere in Europe.

You can beat a car to death on the curbs at Monza just fine if that's your goal.

Originally Posted by knighty

Regarding Hondas F1 plight, Honda have publicly said they dont like hiring external consultants, jesus if we had that attitude in my line of work we would be dead in the water.......I'm sure this went down like a turd in a punch-bowl at McLaren.......just look what Renault and Ferrari have done by poaching some top Mercedes engine people......all of a sudden they are back up the front.......

First off let's address (besides the merciless abuse of ellipses), the outright inaccuracy and self-contradiction of that statement. What the other manufacturers did was poach employees, and what Honda won't do is hire outside F1 industry exclusive employees. They do contract consultants instead.

Honda uses F1 to improve its internal R&D and train its engineers, the other F1 manufacturers use F1 to advertise. Mercedes engines aren't built by anything identifiable as Mercedes, they're built by a company Mercedes bought. Red Bull's engines are put together by Mechachrome. Ferrari may hire F1 people directly but Ferrari has a very different road car division from a major manufacturer.

Of course that's a faulty premise anyways, as McLaren Honda is about as competitive as the McLaren side of things is anyways. I'm sure Honda was really impressed with that bizarre engine denigrating Monaco hype campaign that led to both cars qualifying in exactly the same positions as in Barcelona and Montreal. (which also happen to be about the same positions they qualified last time they had a Mercedes engine either)

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by TF110

TMG has shakers and all, so there's no need for a bumpy Sebring test. It could have been a bad installation. The best get it wrong at times. Look at Mercedes' F1 team and the silly mistakes that cause engine failures. Didn't affect the #6 car. They lost the race when they had contact with a GTE-AM Aston in the night.

Shaker rigs miss the abilty to put some things into play. They just run a data trace based on vertical loads off the suspension.

[TF110]

True, so I wonder if they have an ability to test engine stresses. I'd bet on it and them using it or trying to simulate it since the issues at Spa. The specific LM issue I don't even know the cause of. Not so much the explanation, but what could cause it.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by TF110

True, so I wonder if they have an ability to test engine stresses. I'd bet on it and them using it or trying to simulate it since the issues at Spa. The specific LM issue I don't even know the cause of. Not so much the explanation, but what could cause it.

A shaker rig is not going to be able to provide the sustained acceleration forces on the engine such as traveling through Eau-Rouge. Shaker rigs are really only good for short impacts such as those encountered on a bumpy race track.

In order to model eau-rouge on an shaker rig, it would have to be unfeasibly large. The point being that to sustain 2-3g (or whatever the actual value is in Eau-Rouge) in whatever direction the loading is during Eau rouge, for the length of time spent in Eau-rouge, you have a resultingly large path length of any hydraulic pistons that need to retract or extend to generate the acceleration over the approriate amount of time.

[TF110]

I wasn't insinuating a shaker rig would be used to test the engine stresses experienced at Spa, I made that comment on the fact they don't test at Sebring to break their car. If they can't simulate it somehow, then best bet would be to test at Spa again like they did after the race this year.

[Japanese Samurai]

Motor Fan Illustrated is out. Preview is here.
http://www.as-books.jp/books/preview.php?no=4217